Farage and his pot of gold

[Tuerto]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

When someone posts something you disagree with you bring out that old chestnut. You're such a delicate little wallflower DTM, who would want to be in the trenches with you?

Trenches

[jon1959]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

All valid but you missed the point. TOBW is always blethering on about how he cannot comprehend anyone voting Tory, yet he himself benefits massively from their flagship policy. Do as I say not as I do.

If TOBW had courage in his convictions he would have refused the windfall, preferring to give it to charity or back to the state. As is always the case, its easy to say how you want society to be run, but when its your own money at stake those beliefs quite often evaporate, as if they didn't exist at all.

As for you brining the right wing in, according to some the only purpose of the right is to benefit the self, so I don't really see your point.

I will keep away from commenting on your attacks on other posters (to avoid dragging this thread even lower!) but I do think it is worth talking about this demand from you (and others of your broad political viewpoint) that individual action, personal gestures, and public self-sacrifice is the correct way to show the 'courage of convictions' that you claim so crassly for yourself.

It is a generalisation, but I think mainly true, that people with left wing values and politics look to the collective (often the state, but not always) to bring about change. People of the right look to individual actions and ideas - like pay less tax so there is a bit more disposable income to hand out to the 'deserving poor' as an act of charity.

You look at these issues through a right wing lens. You want individuals to substitute for the state. I disagree - as I suspect many do who consider themselves to be socialists, or on the broad left (including Sludge!). I want the state to tax more and have argued for that over decades in and out of political parties. I am happy to pay more in tax and to shape how that income is used via democratic civic processes (not just voting every 4-5 years). I want a greener economy. I want to see harmful behaviours discouraged - by penalties of whatever kind - and positive behaviours that build a mutually supportive society and protect the planet to be incentivised.

I am a collectivist not an individualist. I believe in society and distrust libertarians (especially the selfish and the unethical hedonists who are attracted to the alt right or their fantasy of what Boris Johnson offered).

You can demand that people you disagree with make voluntary contributions to HMRC in lieu of governmental tax changes, you could demand (as many do - especially on another board) that supporters of migrants and asylum seekers should personally house them, you can demand that 'lefties' stay pure by opting out of the capitalist economy and the systems it has invented that are embedded in our lives. Even if we can disentangle ourselves from the way pension funds are invested, or the way the housing market is rigged, it should not be down to individuals to provide the gesture that will satisfy you or others who think like you.

And when terms like hypocrisy are thrown about so easily, it gets more irking. Sure there are examples of hypocrisy by politicians, by officials and by Joe Bloggs and Jane Doe - where they preach one thing but do another. But only if you are really comparing apples with apples. I happen to be a Boomer (born 1959 - the clue is in the user name - and will be 67 in a few weeks) and am in a better financial position than the generations that came after. I know that. But I'm not going to refuse my state pension out of guilt.

I will act politically and vote in a way that (I think) should help to improve the lot of other groups and generations that have been hit by the dismantling of trades unionism and the dominance of neo-liberal state policies across the world. I will not take part in a race to the bottom to satisfy right wing commentators.

Like everyone else - including you I suspect, despite your 'courage of convictions' - I will also be making compromises and living the messy life we cannot avoid, or sometimes choose not to avoid. I admit my carbon footprint is much too high - long haul flights - but I recycle, compost, insulate, use public transport or walk, and donate to good causes. Some good, some bad, but not expecting the world to change because of one person's choices.

[Feedback]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

I will keep away from commenting on your attacks on other posters (to avoid dragging this thread even lower!) but I do think it is worth talking about this demand from you (and others of your broad political viewpoint) that individual action, personal gestures, and public self-sacrifice is the correct way to show the 'courage of convictions' that you claim so crassly for yourself

I have made no such claim.

It is a generalisation, but I think mainly true, that people with left wing values and politics look to the collective (often the state, but not always) to bring about change. People of the right look to individual actions and ideas - like pay less tax so there is a bit more disposable income to hand out to the 'deserving poor' as an act of charity.

some on the left rely on the state to affect change, others prefer direct action (syndicalists for example). and there are plenty on the right who have no problem with taxes, even high taxes. its the concept of government waste and overreach that is the issue

You look at these issues through a right wing lens.

no I don't, i want people to lead by example, and not say do as I say not as I do.

You want individuals to substitute for the state.

no I don't - as above

I disagree - as I suspect many do who consider themselves to be socialists, or on the broad left (including Sludge!). I want the state to tax more and have argued for that over decades in and out of political parties. I am happy to pay more in tax and to shape how that income is used via democratic civic processes (not just voting every 4-5 years). I want a greener economy. I want to see harmful behaviours discouraged - by penalties of whatever kind - and positive behaviours that build a mutually supportive society and protect the planet to be incentivised

nothing wrong with any of this. what makes you think the right are against what you are aiming for?

I am a collectivist not an individualist. I believe in society and distrust libertarians (especially the selfish and the unethical hedonists who are attracted to the alt right or their fantasy of what Boris Johnson offered).

agree with your latter point

You can demand that people you disagree with make voluntary contributions to HMRC in lieu of governmental tax changes, you could demand (as many do - especially on another board) that supporters of migrants and asylum seekers should personally house them, you can demand that 'lefties' stay pure by opting out of the capitalist economy and the systems it has invented that are embedded in our lives. Even if we can disentangle ourselves from the way pension funds are invested, or the way the housing market is rigged, it should not be down to individuals to provide the gesture that will satisfy you or others who think like you.

I've not demanded anything and I am not arguing that lefties stay out of capitalist societies. i am pointing out the hypocrisy of those who criticise conservative values and then benefit from those same values. If an individual felt that strongly, then they would refuse any windfall that came their way. But they don't, as most worship at the altar of mammon.

And when terms like hypocrisy are thrown about so easily, it gets more irking.

its undeniably hypocritcal and you can only imagine how shocked I am that you are supporting fellow left wing posters rather than looking objectively.

Sure there are examples of hypocrisy by politicians, by officials and by Joe Bloggs and Jane Doe - where they preach one thing but do another. But only if you are really comparing apples with apples.

I am....how else. other than hypocrisy, do you explain someone continually posting "I cannot understand how anyone can vote Tory" but then benefit financially from the very flagship tory policy since WW2.

I happen to be a Boomer (born 1959 - the clue is in the user name - and will be 67 in a few weeks) and am in a better financial position than the generations that came after. I know that. But I'm not going to refuse my state pension out of guilt.

your state pension is paid for by taxes from those who are working today. Most likely people who'll never receive an equivalent amount in state pension in real terms, and you are happy with that?

I will act politically and vote in a way that (I think) should help to improve the lot of other groups and generations that have been hit by the dismantling of trades unionism and the dominance of neo-liberal state policies across the world. I will not take part in a race to the bottom to satisfy right wing commentators.

this old chestnut from the left - the race to the bottom. you're as bad as TOBW with your view that only the left have the answer. If there was a political and economic system that was better than everything else then every government would be exponents of it. There are times when left wing ideals hold sway, and there are times when right wing ideals are preferred. Sadly the majority are so entrenched with their myopia they cannot see the damage such dogmatic views cause to society as a whole.

Like everyone else - including you I suspect, despite your 'courage of convictions' - I will also be making compromises and living the messy life we cannot avoid, or sometimes choose not to avoid. I admit my carbon footprint is much too high - long haul flights - but I recycle, compost, insulate, use public transport or walk, and donate to good causes. Some good, some bad, but not expecting the world to change because of one person's choices.

think of this....if you went back in time and shot Hitler you might make a massive change to everyone's life today....yet you think a little change by you today cannot have a big impact tomorrow...

[ninian opinian]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

When someone posts something you disagree with you bring out that old chestnut. You're such a delicate little wallflower DTM, who would want to be in the trenches with you?

WTF is DTM?

[Feedback]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

WTF is DTM?

trying too hard

[ninian opinian]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

This forum is supposed to designed for discussion, not echo chambers such as yours.The value of a forum comes from the diversity of perspectives, even the ones you don’t agree with. Otherwise, it just becomes a “yes-man club” where nothing new gets learned.

The trick is engaging respectfully with ideas you disagree with: questioning, debating, and considering them without automatically dismissing them. That’s how forums actually work. I wonder if you’re going to throw your teddy out of the cot and ask for FB to be banned like countless other accounts

Here comes Feedys bitch.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

You are such a WUM. Do us all a favour and disappear again from this MB.

Putting such a blowhard on ignore was never going to work because people will reply to him and so I get to see what he posts anyway. Judging by what I’ve seen, it confirms that he’s as big a bore as he was when he was going through a phase like this on here about fifteen years ago.

Just a couple of things, I suppose I must have said it at some time in all of the years I’ve posted on here, but I honestly can’t remember posting i don’t know how any can vote Tory - I know for a fact it’s not something I’m in the habit of saying.

As for me accepting a third of the price received for the house my parents bought fifty years ago, I’m afraid my political principles do not stretch to giving the money away and opting to sleep rough - I know he used to go over to Bristol so that he could pay for his prescriptions rather than get them for nothing, but not everyone can be as noble and principled as him can they.

Anyway, back to ignoring him again, time was I’d be biting all the time, but I can’t be arsed these days.

[Packerman]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

Here comes Feedys bitch.

Classy

[ninian opinian]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

Putting such a blowhard on ignore was never going to work because people will reply to him and so I get to see what he posts anyway. Judging by what I’ve seen, it confirms that he’s as big a bore as he was when he was going through a phase like this on here about fifteen years ago.

Just a couple of things, I suppose I must have said it at some time in all of the years I’ve posted on here, but I honestly can’t remember posting i don’t know how any can vote Tory - I know for a fact it’s not something I’m in the habit of saying.

As for me accepting a third of the price received for the house my parents bought fifty years ago, I’m afraid my political principles do not stretch to giving the money away and opting to sleep rough - I know he used to go over to Bristol so that he could pay for his prescriptions rather than get them for nothing, but not everyone can be as noble and principled as him can they.

Anyway, back to ignoring him again, time was I’d be biting all the time, but I can’t be arsed these days.

Same here, that’s me done with him. On ignore.

[JamesWales]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

Here comes Feedys bitch.

Not so long ago someone started a thread on here claiming the shooting of 15 Jewish people on Bondi Beach was effectively a hoax, as was the burning of ambulances in Golders Green.

Yesterday we had someone casually calling people retards. Today we have (presumably a) female poster being labelled a bitch.

When are people going to start calling out this grim behaviour on here?

[Feedback]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

Not so long ago someone started a thread on here claiming the shooting of 15 Jewish people on Bondi Beach was effectively a hoax, as was the burning of ambulances in Golders Green.

Yesterday we had someone casually calling people retards. Today we have (presumably a) female poster being labelled a bitch.

When are people going to start calling out this grim behaviour on here?

when the left do it its allowable. I've said before and I'll say it again, if they did not have double standards they'd have no standards at all

[Feedback]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

Same here, that’s me done with him. On ignore.

I'm hiding the pain

[Tuerto]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

when the left do it its allowable. I've said before and I'll say it again, if they did not have double standards they'd have no standards at all

Massive generalisation, thought you were better than that.

[Feedback]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

Putting such a blowhard on

ad hominem is rarely the sign of a cogent argument

ignore was never going to work because people will reply to him and so I get to see what he posts anyway. Judging by what I’ve seen, it confirms that he’s as big a bore as he was when he was going through a phase like this on here about fifteen years ago.

such a bore that you feel you have to respond every time.

Just a couple of things, I suppose I must have said it at some time in all of the years I’ve posted on here, but I honestly can’t remember posting i don’t know how any can vote Tory - I know for a fact it’s not something I’m in the habit of saying.

you've definitely said it once or twice in the past

As for me accepting a third of the price received for the house my parents bought fifty years ago, I’m afraid my political principles do not stretch to giving the money away and opting to sleep rough - I know he used to go over to Bristol so that he could pay for his prescriptions rather than get them for nothing, but not everyone can be as noble and principled as him can they.

finally, someone who is honest and says sharing money around is fine as long as its not theirs

Anyway, back to ignoring him again, time was I’d be biting all the time, but I can’t be arsed these days.

you repeatedly come back to respond...you want to try a bit harder

[Feedback]

Re: Farage and his pot of gold

Massive generalisation, thought you were better than that.

ok, not all on the left, I take it back. There are a few good eggs on here and my comment wasn't aimed at them/you