Kier yesterday

[Whisperer]

Re: Kier yesterday

I'd say do whatever you need to do to get rid of the current governing party, they are treading water and ever year they are in power now is an important year wasted.

So vote for Starmer and labour yeah?

[life on mars]

Re: Kier yesterday

Why on Earth would you have been terrified by a Corbyn government apart from his Brexit stance?

Same reason why a lot of Labour voters didn't elect him or Labour last time around ? Wasn't it the worse election defeat for Labour for decades ..sense saw us through, sadly let in a loop , all down to one eyed ideology , great to see you all moving to a central arena.

[life on mars]

Re: Kier yesterday

So vote for Starmer and labour yeah?

Not certain yet :
From Independent:
A vote of limited confidence in Labour

Important opinion-poll question asked by Redfield & Wilton, 15 January: “Do you believe a UK government led by the Labour Party would currently be taking the right measures to address the cost-of-living crisis?” Voters were evenly divided: Yes 38 per cent; No 39 per cent; Don’t know 24 per cent.

Of course, when people are asked if the government is taking the right measures, the answer is overwhelmingly No (65 per cent to 20 per cent), but it is significant that this does not translate into widespread confidence that Labour would do better.

That is why I think the Labour lead in a general election would be lower than in the current polls, which are more a referendum on the government than a choice between alternative governments.

[life on mars]

Re: Kier yesterday

You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with this Jewish issue; pray why?

I'm Jewish ✡️

[Dorcus]

Re: Kier yesterday

Same reason why a lot of Labour voters didn't elect him or Labour last time around ? Wasn't it the worse election defeat for Labour for decades ..sense saw us through, sadly let in a loop , all down to one eyed ideology , great to see you all moving to a central arena.

No, more like Brexit pulled the wool over people's eyes. Thank goodness more people are able to see more clearly now.

[Dorcus]

Re: Kier yesterday

I'm Jewish ✡️

So that explains your hatred for Corbyn. I wonder why so many left of centre Jews supported him so strongly? Even to the point of rejecting Zionism like him.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Kier yesterday

So vote for Starmer and labour yeah?

That is going to depend on where you live

[JamesWales]

Re: Kier yesterday

No, more like Brexit pulled the wool over people's eyes. Thank goodness more people are able to see more clearly now.

They aren't though are they. They are actually largely unaware (because many people are happy to mislead) that things are generally no better and often worse within the EU.

The problem with your mistruths on this is that you will get caught out. The reasons you blame on Brexit will look pretty different in a years time..what will you do then?

Find something else to moan about no doubt, but what I wonder?

[Dorcus]

Re: Kier yesterday

They aren't though are they. They are actually largely unaware (because many people are happy to mislead) that things are generally no better and often worse within the EU.

The problem with your mistruths on this is that you will get caught out. The reasons you blame on Brexit will look pretty different in a years time..what will you do then?

Find something else to moan about no doubt, but what I wonder?

No mistruths at all, latest polls show more and more people being enlightened.

[JamesWales]

Re: Kier yesterday

No mistruths at all, latest polls show more and more people being enlightened.

Or more and more people are being misinformed?

Because as discussed elsewhere, unemployment is much lower here, inflation is lower than the EU average, the FTSE is near a record high, the wage/inflation ratio is far better here than the EU (though still negative) etc etc etc.

You read some of the media and esp some people on twitter and the opposite of reality is it portrayed.

Either way, it isn't going to happen so really it is long past the time to put this EUanon stuff to bed and move on.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Kier yesterday

Or more and more people are being misinformed?

Because as discussed elsewhere, unemployment is much lower here, inflation is lower than the EU average, the FTSE is near a record high, the wage/inflation ratio is far better here than the EU (though still negative) etc etc etc.

You read some of the media and esp some people on twitter and the opposite of reality is it portrayed.

Either way, it isn't going to happen so really it is long past the time to put this EUanon stuff to bed and move on.

But where are the people who seem to be disillusioned with the Brexit project getting their misinformation from? Certainly not the two main political parties who are either still advocates or mute. Nor the media who, the Guardian and Independent apart are either neutral or very pro-Brexit.

Perhaps, as I pointed out to you yesterday, the fact that alone in the G7 our GDP is still lower than it was pre-Covid, and that all forecasts put us bottom or near bottom of that league going forward. Maybe it's the OBR's latest statement based on evidence to date is that their impact assessment of a 15% reduction in GB trade activity remains sound. Or perhaps the promissory NHS banners on the side of buses no longer resonate with their actual experience. No GDP growth for three years is tangible in peoples lives who were sold false promises of milk and honey.

My judgment is that the forthcoming regulatory bonfire that the Tory zealots are trying to force through will further backfire when people actually see that the laws and regulations that the UK signed up to whilst part of the EU were overwhelmingly sensible and their loss will only benefit those seeking to make the UK Singapore on Thames.

Still, like Josie Wales, I am sure you will be with Farage, Rees-Mogg, Redwood and the gang as one of the last of the hold-outs.

[JamesWales]

Re: Kier yesterday

But where are the people who seem to be disillusioned with the Brexit project getting their misinformation from? Certainly not the two main political parties who are either still advocates or mute. Nor the media who, the Guardian and Independent apart are either neutral or very pro-Brexit.

Perhaps, as I pointed out to you yesterday, the fact that alone in the G7 our GDP is still lower than it was pre-Covid, and that all forecasts put us bottom or near bottom of that league going forward. Maybe it's the OBR's latest statement based on evidence to date is that their impact assessment of a 15% reduction in GB trade activity remains sound. Or perhaps the promissory NHS banners on the side of buses no longer resonate with their actual experience. No GDP growth for three years is tangible in peoples lives who were sold false promises of milk and honey.

My judgment is that the forthcoming regulatory bonfire that the Tory zealots are trying to force through will further backfire when people actually see that the laws and regulations that the UK signed up to whilst part of the EU were overwhelmingly sensible and their loss will only benefit those seeking to make the UK Singapore on Thames.

Still, like Josie Wales, I am sure you will be with Farage, Rees-Mogg, Redwood and the gang as one of the last of the hold-outs.

See what you have done there Cyril, in a roundabout way is dismiss actual real data and instead promote a prediction, when economists are routinely wrong on those estimates. Which is more important? The prediction made on Saturday morning that City will lose a match, or the actual result?

I don't dispute whatsoever that times are tough - they are tough for me. My point is that they are tough almost everywhere and in many cases tougher. Brexit doesnt help but it doesn't hinder. The idea we would be growing our economy at a rate vastly higher than the EU now (were we still members) is clearly not true

It needs tweaking of course and the costs / benefits of anything are never equally spread but the causes of our problems are not related to it, yet there are some who, for their own personal or financial reasons will imply that it is.

And yes I do think one of the most negative aspects in the last 15 years in politics is that people can find their own 'news' and self filter etc so a rounded picture isn't being achieved and that does feed into misinformation on both sides.

But the fact remains, several years after the vote and two years after leaving, the big ticket economic stats do not point to any great problems here that don't also exist within the EU, and often worse.

Your last comment on Farage etc is just daft.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Kier yesterday

Or more and more people are being misinformed?

Because as discussed elsewhere, unemployment is much lower here, inflation is lower than the EU average, the FTSE is near a record high, the wage/inflation ratio is far better here than the EU (though still negative) etc etc etc.

You read some of the media and esp some people on twitter and the opposite of reality is it portrayed.

Either way, it isn't going to happen so really it is long past the time to put this EUanon stuff to bed and move on.

James, I am struggling to work out if you are kidding?

This isn't about who is 'winning' (on whatever time frame suits you). The idea that you think a smart response to 'we could rejoin' is 'well they ain't doing any better', is hilarious. Brexit was a knife fight, the EU has a few cuts (some countries more than others), we are on the ground bleeding out slowly.

Brexit has put barriers to trade and it is beyond doubt now that this has massively harmed the British economy. A better relationship could allow frictionless trade with the EU, improving the metrics for all involved. People are slowly waking up to the absolute fact that project delusion was embellished 50x more than project fear was.

Also we are a low wage economy (when you discount high earners) and have massive shortages in skill areas - health being one. In the short term, migration from countries that are lower down the totem pole but have adequate education pathways is exactly what we need. Freedom of movement gave us this, people could decide in a day to move here and take a skilled job, brexit has put up barriers and a big banner saying 'not welcome' in the eyes of many skilled Europeans. You would have to be a lunatic to move here from Canada, Australia, New Zealand.

Most of the reasons for unemployment being low are not desirable so it is funny when you and LOM wheel it out as a win.

[North Cardiff Blue]

Re: Kier yesterday

Same reason why a lot of Labour voters didn't elect him or Labour last time around ? Wasn't it the worse election defeat for Labour for decades ..sense saw us through, sadly let in a loop , all down to one eyed ideology , great to see you all moving to a central arena.

Yes if they can't see it they can't see it, thankfully there is only a tiny amount of socialists left, they make a lot of noise, but it's just that they can never get any power and Starmer is killing them off.

[JamesWales]

Re: Kier yesterday

James, I am struggling to work out if you are kidding?

This isn't about who is 'winning' (on whatever time frame suits you). The idea that you think a smart response to 'we could rejoin' is 'well they ain't doing any better', is hilarious. Brexit was a knife fight, the EU has a few cuts (some countries more than others), we are on the ground bleeding out slowly.

Brexit has put barriers to trade and it is beyond doubt now that this has massively harmed the British economy. A better relationship could allow frictionless trade with the EU, improving the metrics for all involved. People are slowly waking up to the absolute fact that project delusion was embellished 50x more than project fear was.

Also we are a low wage economy (when you discount high earners) and have massive shortages in skill areas - health being one. In the short term, migration from countries that are lower down the totem pole but have adequate education pathways is exactly what we need. Freedom of movement gave us this, people could decide in a day to move here and take a skilled job, brexit has put up barriers and a big banner saying 'not welcome' in the eyes of many skilled Europeans. You would have to be a lunatic to move here from Canada, Australia, New Zealand.

Most of the reasons for unemployment being low are not desirable so it is funny when you and LOM wheel it out as a win.

You are rather making my point for me here. You are using terms such as 'knife fight', 'lying on the ground bleeding' etc. All very dramatic stuff that no doubt alarms people.

But if that's true would we not expect to see our GDP far lower? Our unemployment higher? Our wages lower? Inflation higher? Stock market lower etc etc etc?

That just isn't happening. My point is that its a mixed picture and that's my point because that's what the facts tell us.

Do you have any real evidence that we are a 'low wage economy?' minimum wages have risen sigificantly. Nothing I have seen suggests French or Germans etc are paid notably more.

You mention trade. Of course, trade with the EU will never be as hassle free as before but (in theory at least) trade with the rest of the world should become far easier. Irrespective, UK exports to the EU are at a record high. Again, this isn't the narrative you and others push out.

https://www.ft.com/content/47fe0d2a-6e87-4f30-8212-3b37f7f099e4

Perfect? Far from it. But lying on the floor, bleeding? Nope. Not true.

No dispute on what you say about income inequality btw. We are probably wholly in agreement on the need to address that.