Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

[Der Kaiser]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Let him go, regardless of our opinions of the managers we've had they are seasoned professionals and none over the last three years have fancied him as a consistent starter . He seems to have fitness issues, and his tracking back is still an issue. He doesn't have a clear cut position, which will be an issue wherever else he goes in large part due to his lack of ability to use his body despite his size and not being the quickest.

I truly believe if he wasn't Welsh he would not receive the attention he does from the majority of our fans.

[Cleve van Leef]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

You say “as our creative player in midfield” as if we are only allowed one of them. I’m not having a go at you because after watching us play in recent years, you could be forgiven for thinking that was the case. I think to be fair to Bulut, he has tried to wean us off the long ball game, but, essentially, we still have Warnock type “bread and butter” central midfielders built more for the dogs of war stuff which goes with a more physical and direct approach. Have we started a league game with two out of Colwill, Ramsey and Turnbull in the team? I stand to be corrected, but I don’t think we have and I don’t think we will under this manager.

I think you stating we have central midfield players who are “dogs of war”, they are nowhere near players like that, in fact Wintle and Ralls, if they’re the ones you are thinking of couldn’t tackle a cooked dinner! They are lightweight midfielders, and definitely not Warnockesque.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

I’m sure there was an away game where they both started in a middle three, I can’t remember the game now but we lost.

Edit
WBA away was the game.

Yes, you’re right, but I notice we started with a back three, wing backs, two strikers and no wingers that night (Grant couldn’t play), so maybe Bulut thought that the extra centreback gave him enough protection to have Colwill and Turnbull in the starting line up - whatever his thinking was, we conceded within thirty seconds!

I should have said will two out of those three start when we play our normal four at the back.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

I think you stating we have central midfield players who are “dogs of war”, they are nowhere near players like that, in fact Wintle and Ralls, if they’re the ones you are thinking of couldn’t tackle a cooked dinner! They are lightweight midfielders, and definitely not Warnockesque.

Well Ralls was in Warnock’s promotion team, but I accept he’s not the player now that he was then. As for Wintle, I’ve got more time for him than most City fans I reckon, but I’m not sure what sort of player he is. O’Dowda was talking in glowing terms about his technique after the Ipswich match, but he doesn’t do enough when he’s used as the number ten type for me and I accept that he’s no midfield hard man. Maybe I shouldn’t have said dogs of war, but, when we play with four at the back we have two number six types and it’s always two out of Wintle, Ralls and Siopis.

[2b2bdoo]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Yes, you’re right, but I notice we started with a back three, wing backs, two strikers and no wingers that night (Grant couldn’t play), so maybe Bulut thought that the extra centreback gave him enough protection to have Colwill and Turnbull in the starting line up - whatever his thinking was, we conceded within thirty seconds!

I should have said will two out of those three start when we play our normal four at the back.

Yeah, it’s a shame we started so poorly in that game as I wondered how that formation may have worked out. Even though both started it was a very clear 3 in midfield, none really pushing up to join the top 2.

[NYCBlue]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Some have been quick to write off Rubin Colwill, but I see some sort of comparison with another young attacking midfielder we had who signed for us almost 20 years ago now; club legend Peter Whittingham. Before I carry on, I'm not suggesting for a second that Colwill could become a Whitts, I'd just like to draw a few parallels.

Whitts signed for us when he was 22, so he was a year older than Colwill is now. Whitts also had Premier League experience, so had a far greater head start in his career compared with Colwill. In Whitts first full season at the club he failed to nail down a regular starting place, particularly during the first half of the 2007/08 season. There were rumours at the end of that season that Forest were interested and some fans would have been happy to have seen Whitts leave. He'd have 1 good game in 6, was criticised by some as being lazy. He scored 5 goals that season. He only scored 3 in the 2008/09 season when, again, he wasn't always a starter, making 10 appearances from the bench and not starting much during the failed promotion run-in.

It was the 2009/10 season that Whitts scored over 20 goals in all competitions and made a reputation for himself as one of the best free-kick and spectacular goal scorers anywhere. Whitts was 25 at the start of that season and, from then on, was arguably the first name on the team sheet for 6/7 years. Colwill is 21. If we never saw the best of Whitts until his mid 20s, then it is surely reasonable to suggest we might not see the same with Colwill for a few more seasons, until he learns more about the game and develops consistency. Whitts didn't have that consistency during his first few seasons with us.

I agree with TLG that Colwill needs to go on loan, ideally (for me at least) to a League 1 side aiming for promotion. I'll repeat that I'm not suggesting Colwill could be another Whitts, but that he still has time on his side. It's about how well he's managed. Part of Whitts success was Dave Jones giving him quite a bit of freedom from defensive duties so Whitts could concentrate on hurting the opposition. I think placing too many defensive demands on Colwill won't help him progress. He needs more freedom and patience.

Colwill is turning 22 in a month. I disagree that anyone has been quick to criticize him. Everyone wanted him to do well, but he just hasn't. His impact is minimal even when he doesn't defend. What has done this season? Scored a good goal against Bristol. Anything else of note?

[Undercoverinwurzelland]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

If we had some kind of strategy as a team for scoring a goal, someone in front of him who can create space and a couple of midfielders around him who can pass to a teammate in front of them, I think we'd see a really good player.

[jon1959]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Well Ralls was in Warnock’s promotion team, but I accept he’s not the player now that he was then. As for Wintle, I’ve got more time for him than most City fans I reckon, but I’m not sure what sort of player he is. O’Dowda was talking in glowing terms about his technique after the Ipswich match, but he doesn’t do enough when he’s used as the number ten type for me and I accept that he’s no midfield hard man. Maybe I shouldn’t have said dogs of war, but, when we play with four at the back we have two number six types and it’s always two out of Wintle, Ralls and Siopis.

Just before the end of the first half Wintle and O'Dowda were having a go at Colwill. It seemed to be about his runs and his positioning. I never saw Bulut doing the same. Colwill had a poor half, but he was trying passes that didn't come off, making runs and coming back to the CBs to pick up the ball. He was trying but he was working to a different script from some of the others (not that the rest of the team was on the same script either).

I can see why Wilson-Esbrand was taken off (he was giving the ball away to much and playing backwards) but Colwill was just a scapegoat for a poor first half by the whole team where there was no obvious plan or clarity of roles. Maybe that was down to players not doing what they were told, maybe it was just another off day, but the buck must stop with the manager.

[Garth Blue]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

You say “as our creative player in midfield” as if we are only allowed one of them. I’m not having a go at you because after watching us play in recent years, you could be forgiven for thinking that was the case. I think to be fair to Bulut, he has tried to wean us off the long ball game, but, essentially, we still have Warnock type “bread and butter” central midfielders built more for the dogs of war stuff which goes with a more physical and direct approach. Have we started a league game with two out of Colwill, Ramsey and Turnbull in the team? I stand to be corrected, but I don’t think we have and I don’t think we will under this manager.

This is so on point. I still maintain Rubin is a class player and it would be a massive shame if he had to leave us. But he needs players with vision around him. Players who see a pass early. Players he make intelligent runs. Yesterday wasn't Colwills best day, but the number of times he showed for a pass only to be either unseen or ignored was scandalous. Our defenders and defensive midfielders will not/ cannot play an earlier pass into space. The want 2 / 3 touches and then the space is closed down. Colwill should be guaranteed at least 70 minutes each game till the end of the season. And we need to play a system that allows him to play with Turnbull or Ramsey. As for Bulut, he should be on his bike.

[Trigger]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

You say “as our creative player in midfield” as if we are only allowed one of them. I’m not having a go at you because after watching us play in recent years, you could be forgiven for thinking that was the case. I think to be fair to Bulut, he has tried to wean us off the long ball game, but, essentially, we still have Warnock type “bread and butter” central midfielders built more for the dogs of war stuff which goes with a more physical and direct approach. Have we started a league game with two out of Colwill, Ramsey and Turnbull in the team? I stand to be corrected, but I don’t think we have and I don’t think we will under this manager.

That wasn't really my thought process to be honest. Merely stating the obvious that in that team that was colwill's role as Bulut does prefer the two worker type players behind him.

I'd love to see Ramsey and colwill.

If we play like we did yesterday it doesn't really matter what set up we have I guess.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Colwill is turning 22 in a month. I disagree that anyone has been quick to criticize him. Everyone wanted him to do well, but he just hasn't. His impact is minimal even when he doesn't defend. What has done this season? Scored a good goal against Bristol. Anything else of note?

That's partly my point, though. Whitts didn't do a great deal of note during his first couple of seasons. He divided opinion, just as Colwill is at present.

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

I reckon Colwill needs to go on a season-long loan to a reasonable League One club. His career here is getting silly. There is absolutely no chance of him developing properly unless he is a regular starter somewhere, and he's not going to be that here as things stand.

If he can go away and have a good season at the level below, there's a chance he could establish himself as a Championship player in years to come. But unless a new manager comes in with a totally different mindset, Colwill ain't going to be a regular starter here.

I agree with this. Send him to Wrexham for a season because at the moment if you thought he was good enough to build a team around you're mad.

He gets extra slack because he's Welsh but he's not in the same category as other good Welsh internationals we've had over the past 15 - 20 years. ie Ramsey, Ledley, Gabbidon.

[Tuerto]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

Some people alluding to us getting three or four players in to suit a player who hasn't really done much (Colwill) **** me, that would take a brave manager.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

I agree with this. Send him to Wrexham for a season because at the moment if you thought he was good enough to build a team around you're mad.

He gets extra slack because he's Welsh but he's not in the same category as other good Welsh internationals we've had over the past 15 - 20 years. ie Ramsey, Ledley, Gabbidon.

You say that like Wrexham would take him. He’d fit in better at Newport but I don’t know what the set up is there with new owners.

Ben White played nearly every game for Newport back in 2017/18 season I think it was. Watched him play loads of times. Now look where he is.

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Re: Lets Have a Sensible Debate -Part 1

You say that like Wrexham would take him. He’d fit in better at Newport but I don’t know what the set up is there with new owners.

Ben White played nearly every game for Newport back in 2017/18 season I think it was. Watched him play loads of times. Now look where he is.

I used them only as a Welsh club that may be in League 1 next year. I think they would be interested as it would be a Welsh international and would tick a box for them.

May not be the quality box.