Christmas

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Christmas

If it has such a positive affect on your life I don't think the realness matters at all anyway, just keep enjoying it yourself and don't worry what others think as it is one of those topics that no one will ever change their mind over.

I think if religion had that same effect on everyone no one would be as bothered by it, it's more the negative aspects of religion that have become more obvious that make people so against it.

If by the negative aspects I wonder if you mean that accepting Christianity may cause you to have to make some changes in your personal life/behaviour, which of course is anathema in modern society, then yes I'm afraid it does! I happen to believe that Christianity is a powerful force for good in the world. Unfortunately Christians are still human and therefore by definition are somewhat less than perfect people, but of course we also are very aware that we aren't! The snag is, as G.K. Chesterton wrote: Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found to be too difficult and left untried.” !

[lardy]

Re: Christmas

Of course precision matters where precision matters. I have a PhD in a scientific discipline so I am well aware of that. However here we are discussing the life and times of a person who lived just over two thousand years ago, not some sort of scientific experiment! I suspect we both know that hair-splitting arguments about exactly when said person was born (plus or minus a year or two) are merely deflective tactics which attempt to stifle further debate.

With regards miracles etc – of course I have no proof in the scientific sense as we only have the writings of the New Testament. If you want to believe that these are invented fairy stories then that is your choice of course. I prefer to believe that these are actual eye witness accounts which were written down some years after the events in the same way, as for example, the personal memories of WW2 veterans that were recorded many years after the actual events. Many of these personal stories (as opposed to the large scale military events such as D-Day for example, which are well-documented in photographs or film archives) cannot be verified because the men they fought alongside either died during the war or in the interim. Would you dismiss their accounts on the basis that what they say cannot be independently verified? My Dad never spoke much about his WW2 experiences but what he did say I had no reason to disbelieve although he had no “evidence” that any of it was true.

I guess if your dad said he chatted to a snake or fed 5,000 people with five quid of shopping then you might question him...

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Christmas

I guess if your dad said he chatted to a snake or fed 5,000 people with five quid of shopping then you might question him...

Nah, I always believed my Dad!

[lardy]

Re: Christmas

Nah, I always believed my Dad!

Fair play

[jon1959]

Re: Christmas

There's a lot more evidence of events surrounding the personal memories to back them up though. I don't think the two can really be equated. Also the fact there was no magic during used during WW2 makes it a but easier to believe.

All true but memories are imperfect. People see only part of the picture and fill in the gaps in their minds. Eye witness accounts often contradict each other - even around a single incident in the High Street. Preconceptions affect recollection - we sometimes see what we expect or want to see....

Also in modern times there have been millions of people who think they have seen ghosts, spirits (very popular in late 19th century Europe - all a total scam), aliens, missing people (after any police appeal), monsters and shape shifters. Some people are wired or conditioned to believe in the supernatural - more comfortable with fantasy than fact.

Believers believe. Non-believers don't. We have different frames of reference and different language. We can maybe sensibly discuss some of the sparse and fragmentary historical record about a Jewish holy man known by the anglicised name Jesus - at least birth, death and a few events involving money lenders, but when it comes to magic it will become a dialogue of the deaf.

[tforturton]

Re: Christmas

Anyone got any idea what I can get my mother for Christmas?

A radical idea - why not just ask her if there's anything she'd like, then buy her the very best version of it?

[truthpaste]

Re: Christmas

If it has such a positive affect on your life I don't think the realness matters at all anyway, just keep enjoying it yourself and don't worry what others think as it is one of those topics that no one will ever change their mind over.

I think if religion had that same effect on everyone no one would be as bothered by it, it's more the negative aspects of religion that have become more obvious that make people so against it.

I understand that, however what gofer blue and myself have isn't a dry, boring, negative, dated and irrelevant religion; it's vibrant, relevant and as up to date as ever relationship with a God who has never let us down (and I am saying that knowing what all genuine Christians would say, not having consulted Gofer Blue, he can either confirm this or otherwise).

So in short, we have no negative aspects, because our faith isn't IN religion.

[Croesy Blue]

Re: Christmas

I guess if your dad said he chatted to a snake or fed 5,000 people with five quid of shopping then you might question him...

[Croesy Blue]

Re: Christmas

I understand that, however what gofer blue and myself have isn't a dry, boring, negative, dated and irrelevant religion; it's vibrant, relevant and as up to date as ever relationship with a God who has never let us down (and I am saying that knowing what all genuine Christians would say, not having consulted Gofer Blue, he can either confirm this or otherwise).

So in short, we have no negative aspects, because our faith isn't IN religion.

It's also used to control vulnerable people and take advantage of them and used to judge other people's lifestyles. That's what people don't like about it.

[truthpaste]

Re: Christmas

It's also used to control vulnerable people and take advantage of them and used to judge other people's lifestyles. That's what people don't like about it.

Then why do you insist in talking at cross purposes?

This conversation is as logical as -

A: "hey would you like a couple of free tickets to Saturday's game?"

B: "why would I want to mix with a bunch of thugs? Isn't it true that some people have been injured or killed by following football?"

[Croesy Blue]

Re: Christmas

Then why do you insist in talking at cross purposes

It’s funny.

Also I think I’ve posted twice in this thread and I think for me I’ve been quite polite

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Christmas

It's also used to control vulnerable people and take advantage of them and used to judge other people's lifestyles. That's what people don't like about it.

The short answers are:

1. Christianity has nothing to do with "control" of the masses, vulnerable or otherwise. I would be more worried about Google in that regard than Christians! I think you will find Truthpaste and I both agree that we do not regard Christianity as a "religion" in that sense of the word. Religion to me is the strict observance of a set of rules like boxes to be ticked and lots of mandatory good works to be carried out before I snuff it. Not for me thanks.

2. Christians do not judge. We may have opinions but only God judges.

[truthpaste]

Re: Christmas

It’s funny.

Also I think I’ve posted twice in this thread and I think for me I’ve been quite polite

I hadn't suggested that you'd been rude, just that you'd chosen to remain unengaged from what was actually being said by making a false assumption that we were talking about dead religion, which is utterly useless as Gofer has just confirmed in his latest post.

[Baloo]

Re: Christmas

Believers believe. Non-believers don't. We have different frames of reference and different language.

I think everybody's probably put their best arguments forward in multiple threads now and I'd be amazed if anybody's beliefs, or non-beliefs, have changed one iota. The difference in outlook and values is really just too big to make much sense of the alternative view. Doesn't meant we can't just accept people think differently of course.

[blue matt]

Re: Christmas

Doesn't meant we can't just accept people think differently of course.

thats not how it works on CCMB I am afraid, if someone has a different opinion they just get shouted down again and again and again

Ref Religion, I really dont get the issue, if someone believes in something / someone and is doing you no harm, just leave them be, let them get on with what they believe or are doing, it doesn't impact your life, leave them to it

They might even be using the belief they have to do some good, the Christmas shoebox appeal is one current good thing that is going on ( yes we know that certain religious groups use them to encourage children to attend church in some countries )
Harvest festival donations is another one, that food is given to families in need, my local church has a " community food bank " you drop off anything you want to donate, the door is always open incase people need anything