This Eu vaccine row

[Elwood Blues]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

To be fair you are both tories so its more than likely you will agree on almost everything

I've only just seen this.

I didn't really want this thread to descend into the usual Tory/Labour and Leaver/Remainer garbage

However I recognise that these thread have a life of their own and often go down different tracks.

Therefore I will say to you Sludge that the two main parties are both broad churches

Just because two people are Tories ( or in my case a tory voter as I am not a tory activist just as many who voteLabour are just Labour voters not necessarily fully fledged socialists) doesn't mean that they agree on everything)

Talking a load of round objects there Sludge

I know it is hard for you to understand but it is not just the noble socialists who can have grown up discussions

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

I've only just seen this.

I didn't really want this thread to descend into the usual Tory/Labour and Leaver/Remainer garbage

However I recognise that these thread have a life of their own and often go down different tracks.

Therefore I will say to you Sludge that the two main parties are both broad churches

Just because two people are Tories ( or in my case a tory voter as I am not a tory activist just as many who voteLabour are just Labour voters not necessarily fully fledged socialists) doesn't mean that they agree on everything)

Talking a load of round objects there Sludge

I know it is hard for you to understand but it is not just the noble socialists who can have grown up discussions

I could only have a grown up conversation with a left wing Conservative like Ken Clarke, massively pro Europe, pro NHS and totally against Iain Duncan Smiths assault on the welfare state which will over the next few years make people realise why the tories are seen as the nasty party . I could never ever vote for or prop up a party that has caused so much pain for vulnerable people . People are free to chose to vote for whoever they wish but if I was having to apply for state benefits the last thing I would be doing is voting tory . I am staggered that some people do . But there you go .

[Elwood Blues]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

You are living in America and seem to be , on the evidence of recent activity , a libertarian in many of your views .

Boris Johnson and his crew are libertarians , not to be confused with Liberal of course

Your attack on the EU is an example of this

I am of course going to take the piss in a light hearted way of someone who has Adam Smith type views on how those of us who are living over here should be

The country voted to leave Europe, in my opinion a staggeringly stupid decision but that decision is now being put into practice . But basically close on half the electorate who voted were against us leaving .

The signs of problems are already there , trade is sliding away , the future is uncertain and economists will always disagree but the vast majority of economic forecasters and analysts are trending that the decision to leave what you call a cabal is going to be a bad one for the future of this country . I used to follow the work of capital economics who are generally regarded as one of the most accurate analysts of economic growth , trending and what they said was not happy reading .

Roger Bootle is the founder of Capital Economics He is also currently its chairman.

In May 2020 he said

"All along, the costs and delays to be incurred by business once we have fully left the EU were grossly exaggerated – even if we leave without a trade deal and trade with the EU under WTO terms. Most of our non-EU trade, including with our largest single trading partner, the US, is currently done on WTO terms."

Note the words in bold.

He also said in June 2020

"Turning to Brexit, Mr Bootle argued it was unsurprising that the transition negotiations have gone badly – this will not be for economic reasons, but rather because of political considerations on the EU side. He said the EU tends to do deals at the last minute. Mr Bootle said there was no risk if the UK left the single market and customs union on WTO terms. He argued that whatever difficulties there would be, these would now be easier to absorb because volume of trade will be much lower thanks to Coronavirus. Mr Bootle maintained that the case for exiting transition on time remains very strong."

So from his comments in bold he couldn't see any problems with no deal so presumably didn't see any with the deal we got.


You obviously didn't follow the work of the chairman of the company Sludge. To be fair, I will note that he is a known Eurosceptic

[Elwood Blues]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

I could only have a grown up conversation with a left wing Conservative like Ken Clarke, massively pro Europe, pro NHS and totally against Iain Duncan Smiths assault on the welfare state which will over the next few years make people realise why the tories are seen as the nasty party . I could never ever vote for or prop up a party that has caused so much pain for vulnerable people . People are free to chose to vote for whoever they wish but if I was having to apply for state benefits the last thing I would be doing is voting tory . I am staggered that some people do . But there you go .

Both main parties have over the years caused much pain to vulnerable people I am afraid Sludge. And people on State benefits have suffered under both. I was on state benefits for a time under Labour. They were no better.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Roger Bootle is the founder of Capital Economics He is also currently its chairman.

In May 2020 he said

"All along, the costs and delays to be incurred by business once we have fully left the EU were grossly exaggerated – even if we leave without a trade deal and trade with the EU under WTO terms. Most of our non-EU trade, including with our largest single trading partner, the US, is currently done on WTO terms."

Note the words in bold.

He also said in June 2020

"Turning to Brexit, Mr Bootle argued it was unsurprising that the transition negotiations have gone badly – this will not be for economic reasons, but rather because of political considerations on the EU side. He said the EU tends to do deals at the last minute. Mr Bootle said there was no risk if the UK left the single market and customs union on WTO terms. He argued that whatever difficulties there would be, these would now be easier to absorb because volume of trade will be much lower thanks to Coronavirus. Mr Bootle maintained that the case for exiting transition on time remains very strong."

So from his comments in bold he couldn't see any problems with no deal so presumably didn't see any with the deal we got.


You obviously didn't follow the work of the chairman of the company Sludge. To be fair, I will note that he is a known Eurosceptic

You are right, I didn't, I had a feed from his analysts who were certainly not saying what he was . I will get on to them straight away . Capital Economics are used by many investment banks due to their forecasting . I shall follow my nose .

[Elwood Blues]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

You are right, I didn't, I had a feed from his analysts who were certainly not saying what he was . I will get on to them straight away . Capital Economics are used by many investment banks due to their forecasting . I shall follow my nose .

Perhaps he should sack them

Or perhaps his board should sack him!!

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Both main parties have over the years caused much pain to vulnerable people I am afraid Sludge. And people on State benefits have suffered under both. I was on state benefits for a time under Labour. They were no better.

Oh no , its far far worse now

Those unable to work under the tories and needing extra help under what was previously a long term benefit , disability living allowance , now have to fill in stressful , anxiety proving forms and in most cases are called in to invasive interviews not with doctors , but by quickly trained civvies working for private firms like atos and capita ......peoples lives decided by someone working for a company whose reward from the government is reducing those on benefits that they clearly need . If you are saying it was worse under labour , who are far from perfect , you are not telling the truth . Disability living allowance once granted was awarded for terms like ten years then reviewed . Now PIP , if people are lucky enough to pass the stringent tests is typically given for 3 years then , even if you have a disability of health condition that clearly isn't going to get better , sod that the DWP send vulnerable and unwell people another form . I used to advise and help many people with benefits and still signpost people to the right places . This govermentvare a disgrace .

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Perhaps he should sack them

Or perhaps his board should sack him!!

The information I have had from capital economics , especially around the time of the election of Cameron and clegg and the fears of a run on the markets was directly opposite of his views which are more than a bit euro sceptic , I think its fair to say .

[Elwood Blues]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Oh no , its far far worse now

Those unable to work under the tories and needing extra help under what was previously a long term benefit , disability living allowance , now have to fill in stressful , anxiety proving forms and in most cases are called in to invasive interviews not with doctors , but by quickly trained civvies working for private firms like atos and capita ......peoples lives decided by someone working for a company whose reward from the government is reducing those on benefits that they clearly need . If you are saying it was worse under labour , who are far from perfect , you are not telling the truth . Disability living allowance once granted was awarded for terms like ten years then reviewed . Now PIP , if people are lucky enough to pass the stringent tests is typically given for 3 years then , even if you have a disability of health condition that clearly isn't going to get better , sod that the DWP send vulnerable and unwell people another form . I used to advise and help many people with benefits and still signpost people to the right places . This govermentvare a disgrace .

I agree with you on much of PIP. MY wife got the full mobility on the basis of the interview but only 10 of the 12 points for care which was a joke. I pointed out several errors the reviewer had made and got an extra two points so she got the necessary 12 for the full amount.

However, she should have got at least another 8 points on matters that the council and care agency care plans both stressed, we pointed out in the interview and the Governments own guidance for Interviewers said they should award points for!!

BUT.


Labour opened the door to this first when they started to use private firms to do the interview for the random assessments for DLA. I did my wife's last DLA application in 2008. She wasn't picked for a face to face assessment but from what I read at the time there were very similar comments from those who suffered them as there are for the PIP assessments now.

Then Labour brought in ESA in 2008 for new claimants and the need for everyone to be assessed. I again read similar comments as for the PIP assessments..

This opened the door for the Conservatives to revamp DLA as PIP when they came in.

This is not to say that the Conservatives do not bear a lot of the responsibility for the over bureaucratic and unfair PIP


But Labour also share the blame for introducing private companies to do the assessments and then introducing near universal instead of random testing into the benefits system for the disabled

This opened the door for the Conservatives to do the PIP revamp in their early years

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

I agree with you on much of PIP. MY wife got the full mobility on the basis of the interview but only 10 of the 12 points for care which was a joke. I pointed out several errors the reviewer had made and got an extra two points so she got the necessary 12 for the full amount.

However, she should have got at least another 8 points on matters that the council and care agency care plans both stressed, we pointed out in the interview and the Governments own guidance for Interviewers said they should award points for!!

BUT.


Labour opened the door to this first when they started to use private firms to do the interview for the random assessments for DLA. I did my wife's last DLA application in 2008. She wasn't picked for a face to face assessment but from what I read at the time there were very similar comments from those who suffered them as there are for the PIP assessments now.

Then Labour brought in ESA in 2008 for new claimants and the need for everyone to be assessed. I again read similar comments as for the PIP assessments..

This opened the door for the Conservatives to revamp DLA as PIP when they came in.

This is not to say that the Conservatives do not bear a lot of the responsibility for the over bureaucratic and unfair PIP


But Labour also share the blame for introducing private companies to do the assessments and then introducing near universal instead of random testing into the benefits system for the disabled

This opened the door for the Conservatives to do the PIP revamp in their early years

It certainly wasn't perfect under labour but assessments under labour were on the whole cumbersome and tiresome but the amount of face to face interviews for esa and pip now is staggering . The tories have kept changing the forms making the hoops smaller and smaller and whilst previously people with complex needs could send letters of support from consultants giving their expert view , people are now not asked to send these in . Which clearly means there is an agenda . Its all very well simplifying the benefits system but putting vulnerable people through such stress is a disgrace . The tories have had 11 years now to listen to welfare advice services and award longer benefit entitlement but many people go through the trauma of renewing their forms , getting interviewed , having to appeal , eventually winning then 18 months later another form comes through the post . People with MS , Muscular Dystrophy , Arthritis , Fibromyalgia etc dont get better Iain Duncan Smith , complete idiot . I think I might have advised you before but pm if you need any links , several places in South wales and nationally help people out like your wife and yourself who should be entitled to Severe Disablement Allowance , PIP and carers allowance and if your wife has complex care needs attendance allowance as well.

[surge]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

It certainly wasn't perfect under labour but assessments under labour were on the whole cumbersome and tiresome but the amount of face to face interviews for esa and pip now is staggering . The tories have kept changing the forms making the hoops smaller and smaller and whilst previously people with complex needs could send letters of support from consultants giving their expert view , people are now not asked to send these in . Which clearly means there is an agenda . Its all very well simplifying the benefits system but putting vulnerable people through such stress is a disgrace . The tories have had 11 years now to listen to welfare advice services and award longer benefit entitlement but many people go through the trauma of renewing their forms , getting interviewed , having to appeal , eventually winning then 18 months later another form comes through the post . People with MS , Muscular Dystrophy , Arthritis , Fibromyalgia etc dont get better Iain Duncan Smith , complete idiot . I think I might have advised you before but pm if you need any links , several places in South wales and nationally help people out like your wife and yourself who should be entitled to Severe Disablement Allowance , PIP and carers allowance and if your wife has complex care needs attendance allowance as well.

PIP and Attendance Allowance are overlapping benefits so wouldn't be able to get both.
Severe Disablement Allowance has been replaced with Employment and Support Allowance (ESA).

People can still send in evidence with the claim form even though they're told this isn't needed. Just make sure the evidence is relevant and focused to the activities that are being assessed and not general comment about having a condition.

Assessment of health conditions doesn't need to be stressful if a) there weren't so many scary stories about it and b) these scary stories weren't based on some truth.

I wonder how many people wait until appeal stage in order to get advice at how to effectively describe the impact of their condition? Should it be so tricky that people need advice? Ideally not.

[surge]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Oh no , its far far worse now

Those unable to work under the tories and needing extra help under what was previously a long term benefit , disability living allowance , now have to fill in stressful , anxiety proving forms and in most cases are called in to invasive interviews not with doctors , but by quickly trained civvies working for private firms like atos and capita ......peoples lives decided by someone working for a company whose reward from the government is reducing those on benefits that they clearly need . If you are saying it was worse under labour , who are far from perfect , you are not telling the truth . Disability living allowance once granted was awarded for terms like ten years then reviewed . Now PIP , if people are lucky enough to pass the stringent tests is typically given for 3 years then , even if you have a disability of health condition that clearly isn't going to get better , sod that the DWP send vulnerable and unwell people another form . I used to advise and help many people with benefits and still signpost people to the right places . This govermentvare a disgrace .

The DWP bases the amount you get on your application, and the length of your award on the likelihood of your condition changing. Of course, that might not always end up with a fair decision in reality.

The assessments are done by health professionals rather than civies. Not always people who specialise in the health condition that person has.

However, people who are awarded the highest level of support under PIP – and where their needs are expected to stay the same or increase – will receive an ongoing award of PIP with a light touch review every 10 years.

[Vindec]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

What's all this got to do with the EU vaccine row?

[Heisenberg]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

The DWP bases the amount you get on your application, and the length of your award on the likelihood of your condition changing. Of course, that might not always end up with a fair decision in reality.

The assessments are done by health professionals rather than civies. Not always people who specialise in the health condition that person has.

However, people who are awarded the highest level of support under PIP – and where their needs are expected to stay the same or increase – will receive an ongoing award of PIP with a light touch review every 10 years.

.
I can tell you from experience that, that doesn't happen. I've had to support people to appeal a decision after losing their PIP claim despite having progressive disabilities.

The fact that so many appeals are won by applicants show that the model doesn't work and needs to be overhauled now. It's actually coating the DWP more money than it's saving.

I've done over 50 appeals in the last few years that all went to tribunal... Literally all over the decisions were overturned.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

PIP and Attendance Allowance are overlapping benefits so wouldn't be able to get both.
Severe Disablement Allowance has been replaced with Employment and Support Allowance (ESA).

People can still send in evidence with the claim form even though they're told this isn't needed. Just make sure the evidence is relevant and focused to the activities that are being assessed and not general comment about having a condition.

Assessment of health conditions doesn't need to be stressful if a) there weren't so many scary stories about it and b) these scary stories weren't based on some truth.

I wonder how many people wait until appeal stage in order to get advice at how to effectively describe the impact of their condition? Should it be so tricky that people need advice? Ideally not.

The PIP form states do not send in letters from consultants , it may lead to you being asked in for a face to face assessment

I helped someone over the phone with one two weeks ago

Its incredibly stressful for many many people

I phoned up the DWP line for someone

57 minutes