This Eu vaccine row

[xsnaggle]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

I think that's stretching things . I mean the anti European wing of the tory party ? Honest ?

I can't buy that

Sadly it isn't stetching things at all.

[Wash DC Blue]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Been showing thier real colours recently :


COVID-19: EU vaccine rollout has been a mess - and AstraZeneca row adds another layer of tension

The bloc's rollout has been sluggish to authorise, haphazard in distributing doses and well behind the UK, writes Adam Parsons

You are living in America and seem to be , on the evidence of recent activity , a libertarian in many of your views .

Boris Johnson and his crew are libertarians , not to be confused with Liberal of course

Your attack on the EU is an example of this

I am of course going to take the piss in a light hearted way of someone who has Adam Smith type views on how those of us who are living over here should be

The country voted to leave Europe, in my opinion a staggeringly stupid decision but that decision is now being put into practice . But basically close on half the electorate who voted were against us leaving .

The signs of problems are already there , trade is sliding away , the future is uncertain and economists will always disagree but the vast majority of economic forecasters and analysts are trending that the decision to leave what you call a cabal is going to be a bad one for the future of this country . I used to follow the work of capital economics who are generally regarded as one of the most accurate analysts of economic growth , trending and what they said was not happy reading .

You never answered my question, but instead decided to go ad-hominem which frankly sums up a lot of the problems we have nowadays in discourse.

Again, on a previous post you failed to acknowledge Dennis Skinner and Tony Benin’s views and decided to raise the fact that I live in the US obviously discounting the fact that I spent the majority of my life in the UK, want to move back, think about my family and friends and deeply care about the country.

I’ve also noticed the use of the term “libertarian” a lot from you recently.

I don’t think I am one. But what’s another ad-hominem accusation if it can get you out of a dressing points made?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

You never answered my question, but instead decided to go ad-hominem which frankly sums up a lot of the problems we have nowadays in discourse.

Again, on a previous post you failed to acknowledge Dennis Skinner and Tony Benin’s views and decided to raise the fact that I live in the US obviously discounting the fact that I spent the majority of my life in the UK, want to move back, think about my family and friends and deeply care about the country.

I’ve also noticed the use of the term “libertarian” a lot from you recently.

I don’t think I am one. But what’s another ad-hominem accusation if it can get you out of a dressing points made?

Well you live in the United States which clearly doesn't look after all its citizens on the back of a dig that the European is guilty of something similar

I definitely think you are a libertarian

Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner are a good laugh but are not taken seriously

But the decision of this country to leave the EU is very serious

If you are looking to move back I wish you well but I think the country is going to be in a piss hole

[Wash DC Blue]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Been showing thier real colours recently :


COVID-19: EU vaccine rollout has been a mess - and AstraZeneca row adds another layer of tension

The bloc's rollout has been sluggish to authorise, haphazard in distributing doses and well behind the UK, writes Adam Parsons

Well you live in the United States which clearly doesn't look after all its citizens on the back of a dig that the European is guilty of something similar

I definitely think you are a libertarian

Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner are a good laugh but are not taken seriously

But the decision of this country to leave the EU is very serious

If you are looking to move back I wish you well but I think the country is going to be in a piss hole

For One: It shouldn’t be a comparison.
The US isn’t what was being discussed.

For Two: I don’t think you really understand what a Libertarian is.
I don’t identify myself as a libertarian or with any steadfast ideology for that matter.

For Three: How on earth can you call yourself a Labour Man and call Tony Benn “A good laugh and not to be taken seriously”?

My beliefs sit comfortably alongside those of Paul Embery.
He thinks that the modern left hate “The Working Class” and I agree with him.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

For One: It shouldn’t be a comparison.
The US isn’t what was being discussed.

For Two: I don’t think you really understand what a Libertarian is.
I don’t identify myself as a libertarian or with any steadfast ideology for that matter.

For Three: How on earth can you call yourself a Labour Man and call Tony Benn “A good laugh and not to be taken seriously”?

My beliefs sit comfortably alongside those of Paul Embery.
He thinks that the modern left hate “The Working Class” and I agree with him.

if you are going to say sarcastically that the European Union takes care of all its citizens then I think its a bit of a cheek coming from someone who lives in the country which says its the land of the free and promotes justice and equality for all ......unless you are black and gives people the right to walk into shops and buy guns . If the EU isn't looking after its citizens then the good old u s of a is a fecking disaster

You have laid into Europe, I am pointing out that the USA which has loads of different state laws is a single market just like the EU you hate so much

I know exactly what a libertarian is , they can come from the right and the left you come from the right judging by your posts on Europe. Thatcher was a libertarian as is that idiot Boris Johnson.

Most people of a left leaning with half a brain realise that Tony Benn , Skinner and Corbyn are a good laugh to listen to but completely lost and often full of hot air .

[life on mars]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

For One: It shouldn’t be a comparison.
The US isn’t what was being discussed.

For Two: I don’t think you really understand what a Libertarian is.
I don’t identify myself as a libertarian or with any steadfast ideology for that matter.

For Three: How on earth can you call yourself a Labour Man and call Tony Benn “A good laugh and not to be taken seriously”?

My beliefs sit comfortably alongside those of Paul Embery.
He thinks that the modern left hate “The Working Class” and I agree with him.

I think Embery's view are fairly spot , isn't he an ex union official and feels Labour has lost touch and neglected its traditional voters, it seems they have moved away from the old fashion working class and become a middle-class cosmpoltian party which now seeks urban city voters .

Looking at the last few elections his views maybe right

I read somewhere that the Tory party now attract as many working class voters , perhaps that was borne out by the so called collapse of the Northern Red Wall, and losing Scotland another working class stronghold ,it appears lost to them ??

Perhaps their tactics have been badly thought through over the years , or has their in-fighting since Blair consumed and destroyed them , who knows , all I do know, something went wrong 🤔

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

I think Embery's view are fairly spot , isn't he an ex union official and feels Labour has lost touch and neglected its traditional voters, it seems they have moved away from the old fashion working class and become a middle-class cosmpoltian party which now seeks urban city voters .

Looking at the last few elections his views maybe right

I read somewhere that the Tory party now attract as many working class voters , perhaps that was borne out by the so called collapse of the Northern Red Wall, and losing Scotland another working class stronghold ,it appears lost to them ??

Perhaps their tactics have been badly thought through over the years , or has their in-fighting since Blair consumed and destroyed them , who knows , all I do know, something went wrong 🤔

People of a working class background can have Conservative values and people who are very wealthy and privately schooled can have socialist values .

Labour have portrayed themselves as the party of the working man but some of the people I know , but are not an associate of , are working class, vote Labour and are racist and far more racist than Conservative people I know . I think the labour party are done and the centre and left of British politics need to unite and form a new party as this country is lurching to the right and it will only get worse .

The fella from the fire brigades Union is anti European so clearly Mr Washington agrees with him although I hope he doesn't agree with his views on sexuality

[Wash DC Blue]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

if you are going to say sarcastically that the European Union takes care of all its citizens then I think its a bit of a cheek coming from someone who lives in the country which says its the land of the free and promotes justice and equality for all ......unless you are black and gives people the right to walk into shops and buy guns . If the EU isn't looking after its citizens then the good old u s of a is a fecking disaster

You have laid into Europe, I am pointing out that the USA which has loads of different state laws is a single market just like the EU you hate so much

I know exactly what a libertarian is , they can come from the right and the left you come from the right judging by your posts on Europe. Thatcher was a libertarian as is that idiot Boris Johnson.

Most people of a left leaning with half a brain realise that Tony Benn , Skinner and Corbyn are a good laugh to listen to but completely lost and often full of hot air .

You’ve offered nothing but accusations.
I’ve no desire to give you a “Wood Shedding” so will leave this be.

[Wash DC Blue]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Been showing thier real colours recently :


COVID-19: EU vaccine rollout has been a mess - and AstraZeneca row adds another layer of tension

The bloc's rollout has been sluggish to authorise, haphazard in distributing doses and well behind the UK, writes Adam Parsons

The fella from the fire brigades Union is anti European so clearly Mr Washington agrees with him although I hope he doesn't agree with his views on sexuality

I’m not familiar with his views on sexuality.
If they are homophobic, my views no longer sit comfortably with his.
I’d be surprised and disappointed if they were.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

You’ve offered nothing but accusations.
I’ve no desire to give you a “Wood Shedding” so will leave this be.

You on this thread have described the EU as a cabal and are clearly anti Europe. Unless you didn't actually type what was typed . You said the EU boils your piss and doesn't care for its citizens yet you live in the USA where not looking after huge sections of society is the norm . The fella you quote isn't as free thinking on certain issues as you may believe .

[bigjoe]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Then again, they could not!
They haven't said it is unsafe they are only questioning the level of efficacy, so in a few months time when their over 65s are dying for lavck of any vaccine at all lets see what their people think.
But of course if it really concerns you just make sure none of your family over 65 gets the vaccine in question.

And why would we not be able to get the other vaccines?

(just in case somebody else is interested in bringing this back to the vaccination issue) - Yes, the Germans are saying its efficacy is unproven for over 65s. This is because most testing was done on younger people, partly due to the hope that they'd be more resilient to any possible vaccine side-effects. There isn't much data for over 65s as they were deliberately not targeted in the trials. However, there is no evidence to say that the efficacy is very much different in the over 65s. It would not be surprising if it'd be lower as older people (ahem , me) typically do not produce as many antibodies as a younger person after vaccination.
AZ claim that their limited results suggest that the vaccine is effective for over 65s (they do not claim any more as I guess that the sample size is probably too small to be statistically significant).
However, you could see who was being hospitalised due to COVID. Those people were used to determine which parts of the population were most vulnerable and most likely to take up beds. This was at least partly how it was decided who should be vaccinated during the first round(s) of vaccination (I don't know how these hospital figures have changed with the new variants).

As there's nothing to suggest that it doesn't work for over 65's, it does seem like a bit of a political call. If they do want to stop it, logically, they should now target the most vulnerable groups under 65.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

(just in case somebody else is interested in bringing this back to the vaccination issue) - Yes, the Germans are saying its efficacy is unproven for over 65s. This is because most testing was done on younger people, partly due to the hope that they'd be more resilient to any possible vaccine side-effects. There isn't much data for over 65s as they were deliberately not targeted in the trials. However, there is no evidence to say that the efficacy is very much different in the over 65s. It would not be surprising if it'd be lower as older people (ahem , me) typically do not produce as many antibodies as a younger person after vaccination.
AZ claim that their limited results suggest that the vaccine is effective for over 65s (they do not claim any more as I guess that the sample size is probably too small to be statistically significant).
However, you could see who was being hospitalised due to COVID. Those people were used to determine which parts of the population were most vulnerable and most likely to take up beds. This was at least partly how it was decided who should be vaccinated during the first round(s) of vaccination (I don't know how these hospital figures have changed with the new variants).

As there's nothing to suggest that it doesn't work for over 65's, it does seem like a bit of a political call. If they do want to stop it, logically, they should now target the most vulnerable groups under 65.

Good post, but I’m afraid I have to bring politics into it again with regard to the use of the word “libertarian” because it seems to me that it is at the heart of the different emphasis’ that we’re getting from the UK and Germany regarding the AZ vaccine. I’m no expert, but it looks like the UK Government, with its libertarian instincts at PM and Cabinet levels, has, for want of better term, been prepared to allow and encouraged the licensing authorities to take a bit of a punt on the vaccines efficacy in over 65s whereas the Germans are being more cautious.

Different conclusions are being drawn from the same information and, for myself as someone who is sixty five a week today, I’m pretty content to accept that if the data says that the vaccine is generally effective against under 65s, then it’s hardly as if it’s going to be a waste of time for those older than that.

However, let’s face it, the UK Government’s instincts have generally been a bit of a disaster when it comes to the virus haven’t they. Libertarianism can be a good thing in many cases, but the figures for countries such as the USA, Brazil, Sweden and the UK suggest that a pandemic is not a situation where regulation should be eased, so there is a nagging suspicion that the UK Government’s laissez faire attitude could again be costing the country dear - in this case when it comes to AZ vaccine and over sixty fives.

[Croesy Blue]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

That doesn’t mean shit to some people who have an inflexible narrative.
“Post Brexit Britain must fail at all costs”

I think the narrative here is wrong about remainers loving the EU at all costs. People voted to remain in the EU because they thought remaining in a large trading block and allowing freedom of movement was a good thing for the U.K.

It doesn’t mean they don’t think the EU as an organisation needs a big change and isn’t a bunch of *****.

It’s just we did quite a good job of changing them from the inside whereas now we have no say in a trading bloc that has a huge effect on our economy.

[xsnaggle]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

I think the narrative here is wrong about remainers loving the EU at all costs. People voted to remain in the EU because they thought remaining in a large trading block and allowing freedom of movement was a good thing for the U.K.

It doesn’t mean they don’t think the EU as an organisation needs a big change and isn’t a bunch of *****.

It’s just we did quite a good job of changing them from the inside whereas now we have no say in a trading bloc that has a huge effect on our economy.

for the real explanation of why UK should be in the EU listen to Sir Humphrey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVYqB0uTKlE&t=2s

[Elwood Blues]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Yes, you're missing the fact that the EU are not getting something they've paid for fairly and squarely.

Don't think you could have read my post properly

I'm not denying that the EU are due something that they have paid, or will pay for.

I am saying that they cannot expect this to be fulfilled at the expense of the UK not getting something that we have (in your words) paid for fairly and squarely when our contract was signed three months earlier

Their argument is with Astra Zeneca and as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread the terms of the contract may allow for the delay (they will still get their vaccines) as long as Astra Zeneca have made their best efforts to fulfil the contract in time.

The devil is in the detail and of course Astra Zeneca will have to convince the EU that they have done their best.

Perhaps if the EU hadn't messed about, signed a contract a few months earlier and given Astra Zeneca more time to organise a complex production set up they wouldn't be in this situation.