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What? We don't roll over to have our bellies tickled by the owner and his board members like some on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by stan butler
I'm happy to go against the grain if that is the case.
Happy clappers were in need of a wake up call and now they're getting it.
The criticism of the club and its lack of philosophy (including the use of academy players) has been a hot topic in this board for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
The reason that the club is in the mess it is now is down to the board, so to suggest we should keep giving them more chances sounds naive to me.
This strategy you talk about with the club (using academy players and bringing in younger players) is one that appears to have been borne of financial reality, or is it merely a coincidence that the parachute payments have stopped and there has been a financial fallout from the pandemic at the same time as we’re suddenly shifting our recruitment policy?
We’re years behind other clubs in this respect and we don’t have a footballing philosophy at first team level, which should in turn allow for succession planning - something our fellow Welshies down West seem to be good at. These are all things that a Director of Football could look at, but hey, Dalman thinks he can take care of that!
The same in what respect, Stockholm? Why are you dragging me into your squabble with blue lewj?Quote:
Originally Posted by stan butler
Last night, the club's manager fielded five centre-halves in a home game. If that's a more sensible track, God help City when things silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
I meant from a long term strategy point of view as I'm sure you understand. No part of that selection last night was sensibleQuote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman
Ive asked you before on action by fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue lewj
So what are you doing on Saturday in way of protest?
Whining on a messageboard wont achieve anything.
By the way im accepting im whining on a messageboard about our manager and possibly the worst team selection ive ever seen but im not referring to those who disagree as a happy clapper.
Cmon what are you going to do?
24 hours almost later and its still behond belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman
Wasnt there a manager once who put David James on as a striker in the last few minutes of a game.
That was almost as bad maybe worse. If Smithies was taller maybe hed have come on.
Given what has gone on at the club since Vincent Tan took charge, I'm amazed that anyone seriously believes there's a long-term strategy. Absolutely nothing going on at CCFC at present indicates there is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Maybe Dalman and Choo are doing what Tan wants. Cut costs. Doesnt care about the playing side. Probably thought Mick was a safe pair of hands to keep us up.
Next summer will probably be the same again. Big clearout. Maybe a couple will stay on reduced wages.
Short term we need someone to keep us in the league.
I'm sure fans would appreciate such honesty. If they came out and said, "we need to cut costs as we're struggling" I'm sure fans would be more accepting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilts
It should be obvious that that is the case, our operating budget has halved.Quote:
Originally Posted by UNDERHILL1927
Fans would appreciate just hearing from them. They don't say **** all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
YepQuote:
Originally Posted by Bald Barry Bastad
There was a strategy originally, it was premiership football, red football strip to appeal to Asian markets, and once a second Man U had been built sell it, whilst enjoying the kudos of owning a major football club.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman
Not worked out like that of course. Currently Dalman and Choo look after Tan's UK businesses. HR Owen the upmarket car dealer owned by Tan and managed by Choo and Dalman had sales of £388m last financial year and profits of £54m. It's understandable that CCFC features as a part time job for them compared to this.
Until Tan sells the club we are into a cycle of short term management by people who have been around and can offer a short term fix but no long term development or success.
Similarly, until the fans decide they've had enough and boycott games, demonstrate publicly, and uniformly press for change, nothing will happen.
This is not true. There was never any strategy attached to the rebrand. No business plan. No strategic plan of any kind. Nothing. It was a rich man’s whim. Nothing more, nothing less. This much I know as I had several lengthy discussions on the subject with the club’s CEO at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
It should have been blatantly obvious to everyone that there was no actual plan or any kind of strategy in place as the whole thing was such a shambles from start to finish.
Tan was playing with the club back then and I don’t believe anything has changed significantly in that respect since, apart from him being less interested and less prepared to throw his money around. Off the field, the club is no more organised than it was in 2012. On the field, it’s much less so.
I don't think that what is going on at the club at the moment is strategic. More, forced in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
They’ve not got a clue. Don’t worry, we’ve got another one of Tan’s mates involved to help. The rest have been excellent so farQuote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
TalkSport discussion this morning:
Natalie Sawyer: Home fans turning on the manager Mick McCarthy, is that disrespectful or is it fair game?
Simon Jordan: "Of course it is disrespectful, telling someone they are going to be sacked in the morning. But you have to look at the genesis of it, because ultimately, as Mick has alluded to, the team's performance warrants a negative response. If you are going to get beat four at home by West Brom, being beaten by West Brom is not un-understandable, because West Brom are top of the league and they've got a better squad of players and have the ability to beat teams like Cardiff.
"Getting beat by five by Blackburn the previous week, again that's something that might have some explanation. Mick McCarthy is a very decent football manager. I think he's a football manager who doesn't get as appreciated by the fans that have him as possibly they should do, because Ipswich's decline has been marked since his departure, they wanted him out of Ipswich, so be careful what you wish for. Because he's not a showman, because he isn't fashionable, he's just a very decent, honest football manager. I think it's easy to get in people's faces like that and look for more glamorous appointments or look for him to be the only reason (why the team isn't performing).
"Last year, he was on a rich run of form and he was being lauded as the saviour of Cardiff after a difficult period under Neil Harris. It's a difficult job, the Cardiff job. I don't know what Cardiff want to be. They've gone into the Premier League, they've got a very wealthy owner, that once upon a time changed the colour of their kit, I think there's a little bit of intellectual capital missing in the football operation that doesn't help the football manager.
"Be under no illusion, Mick McCarthy is a really decent football manager. You've got to give these guys an element of the tools. His teams just don't get beat 4-0 or 5-1 if he's got all the tools in place. He's quite prepared to take the responsibility, he's quite prepared to acknowledge they are entitled to it. Do I think it's the fans' gift to do that? They've paid their money. Is it helpful? Is it respectful? If they weren't doing a very good job would you knock on their door and shout through their boss' window 'you should get sacked in the morning?' But that's football, i it is one of the things football has, its emotivity, you can't serve up crap and get fans coming back next week and not expect them to have some sort of reaction to it. It's a unique business, that enables people to come back.
"I don't ever like to hear fans singing 'you're getting sacked in the morning' because it's very easy to fire managers. It's a lot more difficult to replace them. Look at the underlying fabric of Cardiff, I don't think it's a stable football club in terms of football nous behind it as perhaps some people might think it is. Whoever you put in there, you know. Neil Warnock got them promoted. I know he had terrible battles with the ownership to get decent support in the Premier League. They got relegated, they couldn't get back out again. He's an experienced operator. They bring in Neil Harris, Neil Harris is not an experienced operator, he can't find a solution to it. You bring a guy in who has got teams like Wolverhampton Wanderers promoted, who put Ipswich in good nick most of the time and after his departure they've declined. Got them back on their feet and he's now struggling. You've got to look and say 'what's the common denominator?' The ownership."
Trevor Sinclair: "It's not the manager, is it?"
NS: "Is there a line then that fans sometimes cross in this situation with regards to home fans chanting 'you're getting sacked in the morning'?"
TS: "For me, I feel a little disappointed with the home fans. I've played at Cardiff, it's a fantastic city. Great part of the world. I really had a great time there and the fans were superb. It helps if you get to the FA Cup final and it helps if you brought in some big names, but what I would say about Mick is, for me, while I've been watching him the last 20 years as a manager, he's a no nonsense, competent, hard working, experienced manager who knows how to lead a group of players.
"Now you start looking at the results and the detail, they've been beaten at home by West Brom, Premier League side last season, Blackburn, Tony Mowbray, great manager, on their day they can fire and that's away from home. Bournemouth at home, they are going to be there or thereabouts. Coventry, they were top of the league the other day. The Bristol City one is a difficult one to take because that's a massive rival for the club, that's a tough one for the fans to take."
SJ: "They are going to struggle with Coventry as well, because Coventry are a League One side who have just got promoted doing very well."
TS: "And they are up there as well, they are obviously doing something right with Mark Robins. What I would say is, be careful what you wish for. Because even though it might be a bit of banter for the fans, you've got a good man in there.
"If you give him the time to get it right, he will turn this around. He'll either have to bring players in, he'll either have to drop players, work harder on the training ground, do more stuff with set-pieces, I know they've worked tirelessly on certain parts of their game. But... you are supposed to be fans, get behind your team and get behind your manager. If you're not happy with the ownership, I don't mind that, getting into the owners. Simon might disagree with that but at times when I was watching Blackpool when they went through a tough time, the fans always supported the players and the manager. And I think you've got to do that as a fanbase."
SJ: "He has a fixture coming up which if the fans are starting this nonsense now, they will probably get it even louder when they play Swansea. Fortunately for him it's not at home but they've got Swansea coming up in the next two games and if they don't raise their game for that game, and they get beat without their boots on against Swansea and don't put in a performance against Reading, then I think the narrative will ramp up and the pressure will build up, and the ownership model will look at the situation and start to be reactive to it, because I think that's what they do."
NS: "Will the owner not be reactive already, given the chance they've had?"
SJ: "You have to wonder how close the owner is to it. The chairman Mehmet Dalman who I know of and via Neil Warnock's experiences of him, he will be listening and paying attention to and looking at the reality of what Cardiff is and what it isn't, because it's a strange ownership. With no disrespect intended, it doesn't seem to want to push on, and without breaking any confidences, I was surprised at some of the things that were going on when they went up, what their aspirations were and how much they would and wouldn't spend potentially, and what the Premier League meant and doesn't mean. But this guy has gone in there and bankrolled this football club, you can't argue with it.
"But I looked, with the greatest respect in the world to Neil Harris, I thought that was an incredibly strange decision. With no bias intended because he's a Millwall player, but to follow Neil Warnock who knows his way around and bring Neil Harris in, to me I felt Neil was going to struggle and so it proved, and that's not because I'm some sort of oracle or sage but you look at it... if you've owned a football club for five or six years you tend to make more appointments going forward that are right than wrong and you learn if you keep on making the same mistakes you'll get the same outcome. With Mick... it starts with a performance on the pitch..."
TS: "It doesn't, it starts in training."
SJ: "No, for the fans (I mean). The fans can say what they want. The problem is, if it's in their heads now, they are going to start building the narrative up. The moment he puts the wheel back on, they'll dial it down, when the wheels come off again, which they do, every now and again, they'll be back up again because it's now in their heads that McCarthy isn't for them, they don't fancy him. We've got to manage that with how many of the fans are we talking about? Are we talking about a big slug of the fans or are we talking about the usual trappy suspects who have got too much to say for themselves?"
TS: "From a player's perspective, if you're working for Mick, I can imagine most of the players will like Mick, because he is an honest guy, he'll treat people fairly, he knows how to lead a group of men. Now it's their responsibility to run through brick walls, make sure they are training hard, and make sure the next performance which those fans who have been booing that manager, make sure it's a top performance and they come out with a win as well."
CP are sorted for a new manager then if Viera turns out to be a dud. Condescending clown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Morris
Some things he says are true (mainly the criticism of the ownership) but most of it is nonsense. Of course he has the cliche "be careful what you wish for" up his sleeve, it's the same tired bullshit trotted out whenever these old school managers are under pressure
Simon Jordan is a very clever man who actually does know football.
He is spot on for me in all but Mick being the man for the job. Could he do better with more backing? Almost certainly but he certainly doesn't seem to be the man we thought he was during the cost cutting.
For me Jordan, having spoken to Neil Warnock and knowing more of how our hierarchy handle things, is spot on.
Our owner and board do not seem to learn from their mistakes. They did seem to approach the Premier League tilts in a very strange way.
I agree it is a very strange ownership and that it looks from the outside that we do not want to push on. If Tan could have us as a yo-yo club getting the PL cash and parachute payments with any regularity then he would take it with no great intention to stay there. As it is, the way they are doing things means we could be closer to a yo-yo club between this league and the one below than the Premier League.
While I agree in the main with Jordan, they also haven't had to watch the team performances under McCarthy. A few 90 minutes like Tuesday and they might change their mind to some degree.
I missed the bit that I think he was most spot on after looking at the last few failed managers was " You've got to look and say 'what's the common denominator?' The ownership."
We can't keep blaming the manager and changing nothing else.
Of course there was strategy. Tan didn't purchase the club on his own. He was part of a consortium of investors, and such people do not spend money on a whim.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman
The strategy basically was to spend £100m on increasing the stadium capacity, build a new training ground, and rebrand the colours to red to appeal to the Asian markets. On top of that was the aim of top flight football.
I think you're confusing a strategy with the wishes and aims of the owner.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
Wanting something as a return for your money and having a well thought out strategy to achieve that are two very different things.
No, I think you're getting 'strategy' confused with an 'action plan'.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue lewj
Not at all. The aim may have been the Premier League but the actual definition of strategy is 'a plan of action designed to achieve a long-term or overall aim.'Quote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
I think it is you getting confused.
There is no plan, strategy or clue at this club.
We install a manager and say Premier League or else with the money decreasing as the journey goes on.
We now seem in cost cutting mode and are doing it in the most basic way imaginable by throwing kids in and loaning out everybody not in the starting XI. It is madness.
I'm not a Mick apologist and think some of the things he has done are unfathomable, Tuesday's five centre halves is a new one on me. I also feel for him in the job he is being asked to do while being fed snippets from above though.
I'd like to see kids introduced but in the right way.
We are doing the lesser version of what clubs have done when they are going bust. Throw in kids because there is nobody else. No money left.
This board have had the Premier League and parachute money twice and we're in no better shape now than when they walked through the door in footballing terms.
Liz, I think the truth was there was some sort of half baked "strategy" of sorts worked out on the back of a fag packet. Though I believe him to be largely a man of honour, I also think Tan is an opportunist who eschews proper advice. I think he's a 'my way or the highway' sort of guy. How else could you explain the bizarre idea of turning a club with a strong identify into something different?Quote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
He obviously didn't factor in fan and indeed community opposition and his naive notion that fans were only 'customers' who could be bought and ignored was nonsensical arrogance. If he wanted to develop a red club for Asian marketing then there have always been many ready made clubs available. Let's be honest, he would probably have made a wider decision had he purchased a club 40 miles east of us with an even bigger catchment area!
I say all this because this is the nub of the problem; an overly confident opportunistic dictator looking for easy riches and a boost to his ego without seeking sound advice and now drowning in a sea of troubles. Unfortunately our cherished ambitions for the club are going down the plughole with him.
Bristol City’s catchment area also involves Bristol Rovers mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
This is interesting. So who else was involved in this 'consortium of investors'?Quote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
I don't know names. All I know is that it was a consortium of Malaysian investors. However it might explain some of the odd ball Malaysian names that are now listed as directors of the clubQuote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman
Strategy..from the Greek 'Stratigos' is from the military ' the art of the general'...broad brushstroke general plans looking at areas to target, resources required etc.often over a long period. Tactics are where the detailed plans and measurements of success/failure take place.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue lewj
Of course the club has plans. It is a reasonable size business with many departments and all of them will be working to tactical objectives. A SWOT of the business would probably show weakness in the area of football knowledge, experience and related networks..amongst directors
I would guess that current plans are based on cost control and damage limitation in the short term, target being ending the season above the relegation zone. However, unless we are significant shareholders we are unlikely to hear such details from those in control
According to 'informed sources' in the other place, there was considerable interest from potential buyers until they looked at the books. Halve the wage bill and the club is a much more attractive proposition - providing it's still in the Championship !Quote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
There are no informed sources though on the other place.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
I can’t believe our wage bill is that big, average championship wage for us….Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
We've got a few players still on the contracts that they signed after we got promoted in 2018.Quote:
Originally Posted by goats
And Bacuna.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy
Yes, 5 to be exact. Ralls and Morrison both signed new deals in 2018/19, Bacuna/Smithies/Murphy are all PL signings and still on the books. Looking beyond that there's Tomlin and Vassell, god knows what they are on but whatever it is it's too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy
There's no way we have an average wage bill in this league, hopefully the club is ruthless next summer and lets the majority of these players go and in turn if it means we're in a better position to get sold then even better.
In this case, what you know and what you think you know are two different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
When Vincent Tan initially bought into the club, there were a grand total of three Malaysian investors - Dato Chan Tien Ghee (aka TG), Tan Sri Dato Seri Vincent Tan Chee Yioun (aka Vincent Tan) and U-Jiun Tan (Vincent's son). This much I know for a fact as I have a copy of the club's shareholders list dated 29/08/2011 and registered at Companies House on 29/09/2011.
The amounts of shares bought by those three individuals in their initial investment were as follows:
3,645,455 - U-Jiun Tan
3,824,091 - TG
34,416,825 - Vincent Tan
To put the number of shares bought by TG and U-Jiun Tan into perspective, the fact is that Michael Isaac owned 11,203,211 shares at the time.
There was no Malaysian consortium. It was just Vincent Tan, who put up the lion's share of the money, his business associate TG, who had talked him into getting involved, and his son U-Jiun. In due course, VT significantly increased his personal shareholding to the point where he effectively owned the club outright, TG was sent packing and UT seemed to lose interest and disappeared from the board.
In his first public statement regarding CCFC (released on 14/06/2012), Vincent Tan said: "I first heard of Cardiff City Football Club when my friend and business partner Dato’ Chan Tien Ghee approached me in November 2009 to ask if I would be interested in making an equity investment in a British football club which had the possibility of being promoted to the top flight of English football.
"I knew little of football then and regarded any potential investment as being solely a business decision. To that end I agreed to make an initial investment of £6 million for a 40% stake in Cardiff City Football Club. I then decided to increase my investment, and to date I have invested a total of £40.8 million (comprising £34.8 million in loans and £6 million in equity) in the club."
There never was a consortium of Malaysian investors, just as there never was a hedge fund when Peter Ridsdale and Co ousted Sam Hammam. Both were inventions of the press.
You say there were three investors initially. Two or more individuals pooling resources to invest qualifies as a consortiumQuote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman