Rebuffed - Sala Insurance arguments

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Originally Posted by cityhammer

I think the point is this. If it was common practice for players to be automatically added to the policy upon signing then the club would have assumed that Sala was covered. If so they will have a good case in law to claim that he was covered the moment he signed.

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But the club spent years arguing they never signed him.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Absolutely.

"All Cardiff City Football Club staff understood from its broker that all players were insured from the moment they were signed", yet we spent years arguing that we hadn't signed him.

What a cesspit of lies.

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If the club thought that any player that signs from your reserve grade player breaking into the squad to a multi million pound player is automatically insured on signing the contract in a one size fits all sort of agreement then the lack of knowledge is worrying.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

If the club thought that any player that signs from your reserve grade player breaking into the squad to a multi million pound player is automatically insured on signing the contract in a one size fits all sort of agreement then the lack of knowledge is worrying.

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Tan is our hero.

What a ****ing shambles. The club really is a joke. How any of these people became successful businessmen is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

But the club spent years arguing they never signed him.

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Well,yes Eric,because if Fifa had agreed that he hadn't signed then the question of insurance would have been irrelevant. Now,however they have been told they have to pay out so whether he was insured or not becomes important.

I don't know know though whether the insurance clubs take out normally means that any player who signs is automatically covered by the insurance or (crucially in this case of course!) if the club had to inform the insurers of the players name before the insurance was valid(which is the brokers defence of course).

I guess no one on here knows this, although I suspect the latter.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

The time for trying to claim the moral high ground regarding Emiliano Sala passed years ago.

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I don't think they're taking the moral high ground just putting out their viewpoint to the fans who are very anti Cardiff due to the worm on the badge.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Well,yes Eric,because if Fifa had agreed that he hadn't signed then the question of insurance would have been irrelevant. Now,however they have been told they have to pay out so whether he was insured or not becomes important.

I don't know know though whether the insurance clubs take out normally means that any player who signs is automatically covered by the insurance or (crucially in this case of course!) if the club had to inform the insurers of the players name before the insurance was valid(which is the brokers defence of course).

I guess no one on here knows this, although I suspect the latter.

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Once upon a time I was a manager of a "high value" team at a life insurance company.

I can assure you that no footballer worth a lot of money, is automatically insured.

Higher value life insurance automatically requires an up-to-date full medical examination, and all relevant paperwork signed by the individual being insured as a minimum.

Sala's medical was completed by the 18th as reported by Wales Online. Possibly completed earlier.
It is not the job of the insurance company to chase the paperwork.

On completion of that medical, given the value of the player, that full medical paperwork should have been signed off by the club doctor, immediately scanned onto a computer, and immediately sent across to the insurer.

At this point, the club should have been contacting the insurer directly to request the application be processed as quickly as possible given the situation.

The insurance company literally could have had a policy in place within the hour if necessary given the high value nature of the case. A medical underwriter would have assessed the medical paperwork immediately upon request, and a decision would have been made at that point.

I daresay that, quite clearly, none of this happened.

Also, for the record, a flight to France in a plane being flown by an unqualified pilot... Would have likely voided the insurance anyway!!

It's all an absolute farce.
Tan has f*cked up royally and should have accepted that and paid up when asked.
Instead, ego and arrogance have cost him probably millions in legal fees, arguing a case he can never win.
As a result, we face a partial embargo and there's no funds for players even if we could sign them.

Oh, and by the way, all Mehmet's "the money's been set aside for the Sala case", was clearly untrue also, as he virtually admitted recently!

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Originally Posted by WJ99mobile

I don't think they're taking the moral high ground just putting out their viewpoint to the fans who are very anti Cardiff due to the worm on the badge.

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Anti Tan not anti Cardiff. If I were anti Cardiff I wouldn’t watch the shite being offered up every week.

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Originally Posted by UNDERHILL1927

Anti Tan not anti Cardiff. If I were anti Cardiff I wouldn’t watch the shite being offered up every week.

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Exactly!

Who on Earth on here is anti Cardiff? It's because we love the club so much we show our concern. Anti Tan but Anti Cardiff - never!

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Originally Posted by UNDERHILL1927

Anti Tan not anti Cardiff. If I were anti Cardiff I wouldn’t watch the shite being offered up every week.

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If somebody is running the club that you love so badly that it is potentially harming the future of the club and you oppose this happening then surely that is pro Cardiff?

I don't get the thinking that whoever comes on board good bad or ugly should be supported regardless of what crap they do in the name of running the club.
Support the boys for 90 minutes but people can show concern for the welfare of the club.
In my opinion actively supporting a regime that is harming the Cardiff City brand and potentially harming the future of this club is anti Cardiff if anything.
What these people are doing to the club and the way they are running it is anti Cardiff.

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Originally Posted by Ninja

Once upon a time I was a manager of a "high value" team at a life insurance company.

I can assure you that no footballer worth a lot of money, is automatically insured.

Higher value life insurance automatically requires an up-to-date full medical examination, and all relevant paperwork signed by the individual being insured as a minimum.

Sala's medical was completed by the 18th as reported by Wales Online. Possibly completed earlier.
It is not the job of the insurance company to chase the paperwork.

On completion of that medical, given the value of the player, that full medical paperwork should have been signed off by the club doctor, immediately scanned onto a computer, and immediately sent across to the insurer.

At this point, the club should have been contacting the insurer directly to request the application be processed as quickly as possible given the situation.

The insurance company literally could have had a policy in place within the hour if necessary given the high value nature of the case. A medical underwriter would have assessed the medical paperwork immediately upon request, and a decision would have been made at that point.

I daresay that, quite clearly, none of this happened.

Also, for the record, a flight to France in a plane being flown by an unqualified pilot... Would have likely voided the insurance anyway!!

It's all an absolute farce.
Tan has f*cked up royally and should have accepted that and paid up when asked.
Instead, ego and arrogance have cost him probably millions in legal fees, arguing a case he can never win.
As a result, we face a partial embargo and there's no funds for players even if we could sign them.

Oh, and by the way, all Mehmet's "the money's been set aside for the Sala case", was clearly untrue also, as he virtually admitted recently!

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I have always queried strongly that component myself.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I have always queried strongly that component myself.

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Not sure. If Sala knowingly risked his life, ie sky diving, climbing the Matterhorn, then possibly, but he got on a plane which in all reason would have expected to be flown by a qualified person and in full working order. I

I just hope this Sala case isn't a condensed version of what he is doing with the club as a whole.

Not being able to swallow his pride and pushing on with anything he thinks will work and ultimately failing while ignoring all advice.

I think the type of policy involved here is personal accident rather than life insurance. I work in commercial insurance, and although sports insurance isn’t my thing I’ve seen a few of the policies that Premier League and EFL clubs have taken out. The way they work is this:

· The policy covers all players the club, via their broker, has told the insurer they want to cover, for the value the club has asked for.

· The policy pays out if a player is killed in an accident or suffers permanent disablement due to accident or illness.

· If the club wants to add a player they tell their broker the player’s name and value, the broker tells the insurer and the insurer confirms when the player has been added.

· All pre-existing medical conditions are excluded unless the insurer has assessed medical records and agreed to cover it.

· Cover might also be dependent on the player being between certain ages (eg 16 and 35) and having passed their medical.

· Anything related to things like drugs/alcohol/suicide would be excluded, but surprisingly, risky activities like flying in small planes usually aren’t.

· You can have automatic cover for new signings during transfer windows under this type of policy, which would give you cover for the transfer fee amount (up to a pre-agreed limit) for a few days. It appears though that the club’s policy didn’t have this, or that they didn’t advise the insurer of the signing within the time limit. (If they’d had this on a policy in the past, and their broker hadn’t told them they didn’t have it any more, that would also be a potential claim against the broker).

So, Sala’s death should have been covered if this is the type of policy the club had at the time and if they had added him to the policy in time. They clearly hadn’t added him in time, but are arguing that their broker, who should be providing them with expert advice, hadn’t warned them that they needed to be adding players from the moment they signed a contract. They’re also saying that they’d added players late before and the broker hadn’t told them this was risky. The broker is arguing that they had warned the club. If the broker has evidence of this (an email, letter, meeting minutes) then Cardiff’s action will fail. If they don’t, Cardiff have a chance in my opinion.

If, as I suspect will happen, City have a strong case for negligence against the broker or insurance company for not insuring Sala from the time of his becoming a City player (which has so far been decided by the Courts took place BEFORE he died), then there are going to be a number of people who have contributed to this thread who are made to look pretty stupid and extremely vindictive for making comments about Tan and employees of the club whilst knowing absolutely nothing about the circumstances of the case and the legal arguments. Some of the things stated in this thread are borderline libellous against the club. How anyone can hate an organisation so much whilst at the same time claiming to still be a fan is beyond me. What we are witnessing is an insurance broker and insurance company wriggling and thrashing around trying to do and say anything to get out of coughing up the insurance money (of course they would never do something like that would they !!) yet all certain people do is blame the club, as if they were directly responsible for killing Sala or any of the other circumstances around his death. If you bought a product off someone and it was damaged or destroyed in transit and could never be used, would you pay up for it anyway or not try to get your money back for it - apparently not according to some people.

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Originally Posted by Undercoverinwurzelland

I think the type of policy involved here is personal accident rather than life insurance. I work in commercial insurance, and although sports insurance isn’t my thing I’ve seen a few of the policies that Premier League and EFL clubs have taken out. The way they work is this:

· The policy covers all players the club, via their broker, has told the insurer they want to cover, for the value the club has asked for.

· The policy pays out if a player is killed in an accident or suffers permanent disablement due to accident or illness.

· If the club wants to add a player they tell their broker the player’s name and value, the broker tells the insurer and the insurer confirms when the player has been added.

· All pre-existing medical conditions are excluded unless the insurer has assessed medical records and agreed to cover it.

· Cover might also be dependent on the player being between certain ages (eg 16 and 35) and having passed their medical.

· Anything related to things like drugs/alcohol/suicide would be excluded, but surprisingly, risky activities like flying in small planes usually aren’t.

· You can have automatic cover for new signings during transfer windows under this type of policy, which would give you cover for the transfer fee amount (up to a pre-agreed limit) for a few days. It appears though that the club’s policy didn’t have this, or that they didn’t advise the insurer of the signing within the time limit. (If they’d had this on a policy in the past, and their broker hadn’t told them they didn’t have it any more, that would also be a potential claim against the broker).

So, Sala’s death should have been covered if this is the type of policy the club had at the time and if they had added him to the policy in time. They clearly hadn’t added him in time, but are arguing that their broker, who should be providing them with expert advice, hadn’t warned them that they needed to be adding players from the moment they signed a contract. They’re also saying that they’d added players late before and the broker hadn’t told them this was risky. The broker is arguing that they had warned the club. If the broker has evidence of this (an email, letter, meeting minutes) then Cardiff’s action will fail. If they don’t, Cardiff have a chance in my opinion.

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This is all well and good but falls down on the fact the club were saying until very recently that they had not signed the player.

The arguments they have put forward prior to this have given the insurance broker the vast majority of their argument to defend the case.

Only at Cardiff City.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

If, as I suspect will happen, City have a strong case for negligence against the broker or insurance company for not insuring Sala from the time of his becoming a City player (which has so far been decided by the Courts took place BEFORE he died), then there are going to be a number of people who have contributed to this thread who are made to look pretty stupid and extremely vindictive for making comments about Tan and employees of the club whilst knowing absolutely nothing about the circumstances of the case and the legal arguments. Some of the things stated in this thread are borderline libellous against the club. How anyone can hate an organisation so much whilst at the same time claiming to still be a fan is beyond me. What we are witnessing is an insurance broker and insurance company wriggling and thrashing around trying to do and say anything to get out of coughing up the insurance money (of course they would never do something like that would they !!) yet all certain people do is blame the club, as if they were directly responsible for killing Sala or any of the other circumstances around his death. If you bought a product off someone and it was damaged or destroyed in transit and could never be used, would you pay up for it anyway or not try to get your money back for it - apparently not according to some people.

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We support the team, not the owners.

Owners come and go. Fans remain.

A few might do well to remember that.

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Originally Posted by Ninja

Once upon a time I was a manager of a "high value" team at a life insurance company.

I can assure you that no footballer worth a lot of money, is automatically insured.

Higher value life insurance automatically requires an up-to-date full medical examination, and all relevant paperwork signed by the individual being insured as a minimum.

Sala's medical was completed by the 18th as reported by Wales Online. Possibly completed earlier.
It is not the job of the insurance company to chase the paperwork.

On completion of that medical, given the value of the player, that full medical paperwork should have been signed off by the club doctor, immediately scanned onto a computer, and immediately sent across to the insurer.

At this point, the club should have been contacting the insurer directly to request the application be processed as quickly as possible given the situation.

The insurance company literally could have had a policy in place within the hour if necessary given the high value nature of the case. A medical underwriter would have assessed the medical paperwork immediately upon request, and a decision would have been made at that point.

I daresay that, quite clearly, none of this happened.

Also, for the record, a flight to France in a plane being flown by an unqualified pilot... Would have likely voided the insurance anyway!!

It's all an absolute farce.
Tan has f*cked up royally and should have accepted that and paid up when asked.
Instead, ego and arrogance have cost him probably millions in legal fees, arguing a case he can never win.
As a result, we face a partial embargo and there's no funds for players even if we could sign them.

Oh, and by the way, all Mehmet's "the money's been set aside for the Sala case", was clearly untrue also, as he virtually admitted recently!

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Ah but did he actually say that the money had been ‘set aside’ or did he say that the fee had been fully accounted for in the clubs accounts. Two totally different matters.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Ah but did he actually say that the money had been ‘set aside’ or did he say that the fee had been fully accounted for in the clubs accounts. Two totally different matters.

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Tell us. What did you say?

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

We support the team, not the owners.

Owners come and go. Fans remain.

A few might do well to remember that.

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You don't support the team though. You regularly tear them and the manager to sheds and never have anything good to say about them. Do you go to games either ?

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Originally Posted by dml1954

You don't support the team though. You regularly tear them and the manager to sheds and never have anything good to say about them. Do you go to games either ?

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Oh I do support the team.

What I don't support is a group of people making a pigs ear of running the club. There is a very big difference.

I didn't know who Vincent Tan was before he came and I won't think too much after he's gone.
I'll still support my club.

Who says I don't go to games?
Just because I don't publicise it on here.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

If, as I suspect will happen, City have a strong case for negligence against the broker or insurance company for not insuring Sala from the time of his becoming a City player (which has so far been decided by the Courts took place BEFORE he died), then there are going to be a number of people who have contributed to this thread who are made to look pretty stupid and extremely vindictive for making comments about Tan and employees of the club whilst knowing absolutely nothing about the circumstances of the case and the legal arguments. Some of the things stated in this thread are borderline libellous against the club. How anyone can hate an organisation so much whilst at the same time claiming to still be a fan is beyond me. What we are witnessing is an insurance broker and insurance company wriggling and thrashing around trying to do and say anything to get out of coughing up the insurance money (of course they would never do something like that would they !!) yet all certain people do is blame the club, as if they were directly responsible for killing Sala or any of the other circumstances around his death. If you bought a product off someone and it was damaged or destroyed in transit and could never be used, would you pay up for it anyway or not try to get your money back for it - apparently not according to some people.

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More comedy gold from the board’s most consistently funny character. Whoever came up with idea of dml1954 is a genius.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

More comedy gold from the board’s most consistently funny character. Whoever came up with idea of dml1954 is a genius.

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Now we know what Vincent Tan does in his spare time. He writes weird posts on a football message board.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Now we know what Vincent Tan does in his spare time. He writes weird posts on a football message board.

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dml1954 never says “God willing” and he doesn’t mention Cornelius in every post, so we can rule Vinny out. But whoever is behind the creation of dml1954, he’s a great invention. Far and away the funniest character we’ve had on this board in the 23 years I’ve been using it, and we’ve had a few.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

This is all well and good but falls down on the fact the club were saying until very recently that they had not signed the player.

The arguments they have put forward prior to this have given the insurance broker the vast majority of their argument to defend the case.

Only at Cardiff City.

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If the case for Sala not being a City player was proven, then there wouldn't have been any need to involve insurance. It's just sequential logic to address each issue in this order.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

dml1954 never says “God willing” and he doesn’t mention Cornelius in every post, so we can rule Vinny out. But whoever is behind the creation of dml1954, he’s a great invention. Far and away the funniest character we’ve had on this board in the 23 years I’ve been using it, and we’ve had a few.

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Ha ha, you're right.

Is it possible he was created by Harry Enfield maybe?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Ha ha, you're right.

Is it possible he was created by Harry Enfield maybe?

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possible, maybe ? One too many.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

If the case for Sala not being a City player was proven, then there wouldn't have been any need to involve insurance. It's just sequential logic to address each issue in this order.

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It isn't if you insured them after the plane went missing. As is being claimed.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

If, as I suspect will happen, City have a strong case for negligence against the broker or insurance company for not insuring Sala from the time of his becoming a City player (which has so far been decided by the Courts took place BEFORE he died), then there are going to be a number of people who have contributed to this thread who are made to look pretty stupid and extremely vindictive for making comments about Tan and employees of the club whilst knowing absolutely nothing about the circumstances of the case and the legal arguments. Some of the things stated in this thread are borderline libellous against the club. How anyone can hate an organisation so much whilst at the same time claiming to still be a fan is beyond me. What we are witnessing is an insurance broker and insurance company wriggling and thrashing around trying to do and say anything to get out of coughing up the insurance money (of course they would never do something like that would they !!) yet all certain people do is blame the club, as if they were directly responsible for killing Sala or any of the other circumstances around his death. If you bought a product off someone and it was damaged or destroyed in transit and could never be used, would you pay up for it anyway or not try to get your money back for it - apparently not according to some people.

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So you didn’t screw up then Mehmet? Automatically added to the policy was he? They will have to pay up then and you’ll win the case hands down….:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by dml1954

If you bought a product off someone and it was damaged or destroyed in transit and could never be used, would you pay up for it anyway or not try to get your money back for it - apparently not according to some people.

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If I'd bought a product for that kind of money, I wouldn't be allowing it to be transported around on a dodgy 2-bit plane run by "McKay airways ltd", and flown by an unqualified f*cking pilot!

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Originally Posted by Ninja

If I'd bought a product for that kind of money, I wouldn't be allowing it to be transported around on a dodgy 2-bit plane run by "McKay airways ltd", and flown by an unqualified f*cking pilot!

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to be fair to the club, I wouldn't have thought they would have known the plane was a wreck and not safe and the pilot was not qualified to have taken the flight, they offered him a commercial flight from CDG

So while Vinnie is to blame for a few things he has done wrong, not sure this is one

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

possible, maybe ? One too many.

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No I've only had soft drinks all day.

[QUOTE=Pedro de la Rosa;5384629]Dalman and Choo are so incompetent it is beyond belief. Embarrassing.[/QUOT

Thank God they are football experts otherwise you would wonder what they bring to the club ?

[QUOTE=DubaiDai;5385035]

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

Dalman and Choo are so incompetent it is beyond belief. Embarrassing.[/QUOT

Thank God they are football experts otherwise you would wonder what they bring to the club ?

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Charlton must be sick as pigs Mehmet didn't buy them ...Not!

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

More comedy gold from the board’s most consistently funny character. Whoever came up with idea of dml1954 is a genius.

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I see nothing remotely comedic about DML's well reasoned argument at all, nor your sad effort to discredit it.

You obviously have an axe to grind with our owner as you seem to with many of the said poster's posts, all backed up in the usual way by a couple of your "mates".

CCFC may well end up losing a lot of money on this saddest of cases but it will not be down to one man's actions before or after the tragedy.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Charlton must be sick as pigs Mehmet didn't buy them ...Not!

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In fairness, their current owner isn't much better... They've really been through the mill.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

How anyone can hate an organisation so much whilst at the same time claiming to still be a fan is beyond me.

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I don't think anyone on here hates Cardiff City. Plenty of people hate Tan, Dalman and Choo because they are throughly incompetent and are running the football club we love into the ground with incredible ineptitude. Time and time again they make horrendous decision after horrendous decision and nothing ever changes... And that's before we mention the rebrand, what genius that was from Vincent.

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Originally Posted by Ninja

If I'd bought a product for that kind of money, I wouldn't be allowing it to be transported around on a dodgy 2-bit plane run by "McKay airways ltd", and flown by an unqualified f*cking pilot!

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This poor man was transported illegally from France, destination Cardiff Wales

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Originally Posted by MacAdder

I see nothing remotely comedic about DML's well reasoned argument at all, nor your sad effort to discredit it.

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I’m not in the slightest bit surprised. After all, you take umbrage with everything I post, while you seem to view comedy king dml1954 as some sort of role model.

As regards having an axe to grind, you must have a shed full of them where I’m concerned. Do I know you away from this board and have done something to upset you in the past? If not, then your apparent obsession with my contributions and the upset they seem to cause you is extremely weird.

Let me get this right the Insurance Company who City are pursuing in court have said we are in the wrong so we must believe them before the club , because Mr Tan runs it . Wow.

Incredibly folk hate the current crew and are not so vocal about Sam ( let me sue the club ) Hamman because I'm short of cash.. FFS