Brexit ( should I say or should I go )

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

You say it's stupid but it appears to be quite close to call, so surely that's what democracy is about. I wouldn't call that stupid.

What I call stupid is MPs with political agendas pushing what is best for them instead of the country. Which ever way the vote goes it will be the will of the people so there can be no complaints.

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But that is the only reason this referendum is taking place. Warring factions of the Tory party and a leadership desperately trying to keep it in one piece.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R

I agree with much of what you say (yes it surprised me too), to make it work it would inevitably pass more powers to the EU which I don't think is a good thing.
I agree with many of the points on this list of ten but the most important one for me is reguarding democracy, any laws or decision making need to be made in this country for this country, without that I don't think we have any chance of doing what's in our best interests.
http://www.nakedpolitics.co.uk/home/...d-leave-the-eu

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I suppose that judgement begins with how you see your identity and interests defined. Is it all about living on an island off the north west coast of Europe?

I am Welsh and British and European - and all of those labels are important to me - but I define myself by my experience in the Labour market, my (lack of) religious beliefs, my language, my political views, a shared culture, an internationalist outlook, my membership of different national and international organisations, friendships, and many other references.

I am much more confident that my interests will be served by people from Belgium or Germany or Portugal who share my political views and experience of power and wealth, than by George Osbourne or Boris Johnson. I am also much more likely to support the people and institutions that introduced the EU Social Policy (with so many rights that became enshrined in UK law) than the people who invented the Bedroom Tax.

Apart from that the case for staying in is nailed by Sludge - just look at the swivel eyed clowns who want to leave!

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Why not let the public vote on every decision then?

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The cost and logistics of it I guess. Other countries have a lot more referendums than us.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

But that is the only reason this referendum is taking place. Warring factions of the Tory party and a leadership desperately trying to keep it in one piece.

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It was part of their manifesto, the one they were voted in on. Whatever it was done for, it was also voted for by the public.

In addition to that there was 4 million UKIP voters who are obviously also quite keen on a vote.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I suppose that judgement begins with how you see your identity and interests defined. Is it all about living on an island off the north west coast of Europe?

I am Welsh and British and European - and all of those labels are important to me - but I define myself by my experience in the Labour market, my (lack of) religious beliefs, my language, my political views, a shared culture, an internationalist outlook, my membership of different national and international organisations, friendships, and many other references.

I am much more confident that my interests will be served by people from Belgium or Germany or Portugal who share my political views and experience of power and wealth, than by George Osbourne or Boris Johnson. I am also much more likely to support the people and institutions that introduced the EU Social Policy (with so many rights that became enshrined in UK law) than the people who invented the Bedroom Tax.

Apart from that the case for staying in is nailed by Sludge - just look at the swivel eyed clowns who want to leave!

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You still would be Welsh, British and European, we would still be part of Europe just not the EU.

The comment from Sludge is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard to be totally honest (sorry sludge but it is) to associate anyone who wants to vote out with certain people such as Farage is totally unfair imo, some may share the same views as these people but it's totally wrong to suggest that everybody does, people need to be able to make their own minds up without fear of being associated with other people that may want the same thing but for different reasons.

By Sludge's logic, he shares the same views as David Cameron :hehe: just look at the kent that wants to stay!

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I think the scariest thing about the referendum is the top political "minds" in the country can't even decide what's best for the UK. Even current and past chancellors seem to be saying opposite things.

If these supposed experts can't agree on what's best for us how can the general public be expect to know what's best?

The whole campaign will be based around xenophobia, propaganda and fear mongering from both sides.

I'm leaning towards staying in but I couldn't put up a coherent argument as to why I think anyone else would beyond the lack of financial help Wales will lose and the fact the human rights act will be abolosihed.

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I don't know what the fuss is all about.

1. Being inside a free trade area is very demonstrably better than being outside one. So the economic arguments from the out lot are a load of bollocks.

2. The sovereignty argument has me s******ing a little. No party has had more than 50% of the eligible electorate voting for it since modern elections began. Get that? Not one. Ergo all governments are tyrannies of the biggest minority. Wales has never, ever voted Tory, yet is constantly governed by an English Tory party. So the sovereignty arguments are a load of bollocks. (At least in the US the next president will most likely have gained more than 50% of the votes cast.)

3. Judge the cake in the eating. The EEC and EU have delivered better lives in terms of social policy. I won't list all the gains, there are too many. Who cares about the EU mechanisms that achieved the gains? Leave and demolish all that? A load of bollocks.

The out lot are coming across from afar as a bunch of middle class, xenophobic "little Englanders" who think they can wind the clock back to 1850. Face it - the sun set on the empire. The UK is a small remote(ish) island on the NW of Europe with not a lot going for it.

Turn the lights out if you leave ...

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Originally Posted by az city

I don't know what the fuss is all about.

1. Being inside a free trade area is very demonstrably better than being outside one. So the economic arguments from the out lot are a load of bollocks.

2. The sovereignty argument has me s******ing a little. No party has had more than 50% of the eligible electorate voting for it since modern elections began. Get that? Not one. Ergo all governments are tyrannies of the biggest minority. Wales has never, ever voted Tory, yet is constantly governed by an English Tory party. So the sovereignty arguments are a load of bollocks. (At least in the US the next president will most likely have gained more than 50% of the votes cast.)

3. Judge the cake in the eating. The EEC and EU have delivered better lives in terms of social policy. I won't list all the gains, there are too many. Who cares about the EU mechanisms that achieved the gains? Leave and demolish all that? A load of bollocks.

The out lot are coming across from afar as a bunch of middle class, xenophobic "little Englanders" who think they can wind the clock back to 1850. Face it - the sun set on the empire. The UK is a small remote(ish) island on the NW of Europe with not a lot going for it.

Turn the lights out if you leave ...

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Well you over simplistic analysis makes me want to vote out.

There is more than just Europe in the world. We are very much as good as certainty going to have similar access to the single market, plus better placed to agree more free trade agreements arou d the world. So the economic arguments are similar whether in or out. We had 50%of trade with Europe before joining we have 49% of trade now, not much difference in or out.

Although sovereignty is not a vote changer for me your analysis clearly lacks any knowledge. When you have a 2 party election is it impossible for the winner to get less than 50% of the vote. We have a 6 party vote, its simply not comparable. And to claim that a 2
Party system is better is simply deluded.

And your final claim. Well many of the in voters don't seem to have given it much thought, as backed up by your and many others posts on here. Hoping this generalisation isn't completely true, but it is on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Teddy Bear

Well you over simplistic analysis makes me want to vote out.

There is more than just Europe in the world. We are very much as good as certainty going to have similar access to the single market, plus better placed to agree more free trade agreements arou d the world. So the economic arguments are similar whether in or out. We had 50%of trade with Europe before joining we have 49% of trade now, not much difference in or out.

Although sovereignty is not a vote changer for me your analysis clearly lacks any knowledge. When you have a 2 party election is it impossible for the winner to get less than 50% of the vote. We have a 6 party vote, its simply not comparable. And to claim that a 2
Party system is better is simply deluded.

And your final claim. Well many of the in voters don't seem to have given it much thought, as backed up by your and many others posts on here. Hoping this generalisation isn't completely true, but it is on this forum.

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The truth is simple. I'll try again. I'll ignore your silly insults - let's try to be civil rather than UKIPers.

1. The EU has myriad trade agreements; many that date back to the '70s. Trade agreements take years to negotiate. It's for the outers like you to demonstrate the UK would be better off jettisoning all of that. Free trade is universally good, more free trade is better. No brainer.

2. I never mentioned anything about numbers of parties in comparing the US and the UK. You're conflating political sociology with the simple point I made about the supposed lack of sovereignty membership of the EU entails. The simple fact is the will of the people for a government that represents the majority of them is elusive. The UK populace doesn't get it, EU or no EU. No brainer.

3. You're wrong. Many of the iners have given the social (and indirect economic) benefits that follow from hard-won things like the rights enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights a great deal of thought and will mourn its disappearance with an out vote. Who cares how the EU social provisions came about? It appears you don't appreciate the inalienable rights the EU currently affords you. Again no brainer.

Britons aren't British citizens (there is no set of enshrined constitutional rights or bill of rights), they are subjects of her majesty. They are currently, however, European citizens. I'd think awfully hard about chucking the latter in the trash.

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Originally Posted by az city

The truth is simple. I'll try again. I'll ignore your silly insults - let's try to be civil rather than UKIPers.

1. The EU has myriad trade agreements; many that date back to the '70s. Trade agreements take years to negotiate. It's for the outers like you to demonstrate the UK would be better off jettisoning all of that. Free trade is universally good, more free trade is better. No brainer.

2. I never mentioned anything about numbers of parties in comparing the US and the UK. You're conflating political sociology with the simple point I made about the supposed lack of sovereignty membership of the EU entails. The simple fact is the will of the people for a government that represents the majority of them is elusive. The UK populace doesn't get it, EU or no EU. No brainer.

3. You're wrong. Many of the iners have given the social (and indirect economic) benefits that follow from hard-won things like the rights enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights a great deal of thought and will mourn its disappearance with an out vote. Who cares how the EU social provisions came about? It appears you don't appreciate the inalienable rights the EU currently affords you. Again no brainer.

Britons aren't British citizens (there is no set of enshrined constitutional rights or bill of rights), they are subjects of her majesty. They are currently, however, European citizens. I'd think awfully hard about chucking the latter in the trash.

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I get it , some will just ague as their minds are made up , I am going to approach this matter with fear :

Fear point In : if we leave it cost us and the economy dearly at a time when its not that strong , our ability to unwrap trade deals , and other joint agreements quickly and re adjust will take years.

Fear point two : we leave and become a sovereign rule Britannia country , see a split up of the UK , win back some cash ,which will probably be wasted , Boris in charge, Farge smiling ,workers rights attacked , Wales funding lost ,the political loons who are backing this eeek .

Stay in me thinks .

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Originally Posted by herberthuw

I get it , some will just ague as their minds are made up , I am going to approach this matter with fear :

Fear point In : if we leave it cost us and the economy dearly at a time when its not that strong , our ability to unwrap trade deals , and other joint agreements quickly and re adjust will take years.

Fear point two : we leave and become a sovereign rule Britannia country , see a split up of the UK , win back some cash ,which will probably be wasted , Boris in charge, Farge smiling ,workers rights attacked , Wales funding lost ,the political loons who are backing this eeek .

Stay in me thinks .

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youre selling it nicely!

I'll bet you that the first thing an independent Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland would do is re-apply for membership.

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Originally Posted by az city

I'll bet you that the first thing an independent Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland would do is re-apply for membership.

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If a majority in that country want it, why shouldn't they?

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Originally Posted by az city

I'll bet you that the first thing an independent Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland would do is re-apply for membership.

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Leave a political union to join another one. Bit of a paradox.

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

Leave a political union to join another one. Bit of a paradox.

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No that's leaving a union and joining a state that helps

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Originally Posted by herberthuw

No that's leaving a union and joining a state that helps

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Is the European Union not a Union?

You learn something new everyday.....

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

Leave a political union to join another one. Bit of a paradox.

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Some political unions are more desirable. I'm sure you'd rather see the uk be in a political union with Germany rather than North Korea?

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Originally Posted by tommy31

Some political unions are more desirable. I'm sure you'd rather see the uk be in a political union with Germany rather than North Korea?

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Or England than Bulgaria?

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

Or England than Bulgaria?

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Be tricky for you uk to be in a union with England. I assume you're on about Wales. You look at the pros and cons, if being in union with Germany and France means that being in union with Bulgaria is worth it, then it's fine. If it isn't, then don't do it. Going on singular countries, yeah probably better to be in union with England than Bulgaria.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

All your reasons have nothing really to do with being in the eu though. Do some actual research before making your decision please.

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Exactly my point. None of that list would have been done any differently had we been in or out of the EU, on the moon etc.

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Originally Posted by az city

I'll bet you that the first thing an independent Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland would do is re-apply for membership.

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When did you leave ?

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Originally Posted by Rjk

In
Stephen hawking
The governor of the bank of England
The IMF
Barrack Obama
The prime minister
The Chancellor of the exchequer
The leader of the labour party
Richard branson

Vs

Out
Michael gove
Nigel farage
Ian Duncan smith
John redwood
Jacob Rees mogg
John whittingdale
George Galloway
Boris Johnson
Zac Goldsmith

Personally I could see arguments either way, I would probably lean towards remain for reasons of security within Europe amongst other things.

Not thing that makes brexit considerably less appealing, though is the prospect of agreeing with that squadron of imbeciles.

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For me one argument wins it for BREXIT.
Switzerland is not in the EU,yet, despite Steven Hawking ranting on about science being the loser,the single biggest and most prestigious project in Europe, one most scientists would give their eye-teeth to work on is there.
Scientists from allover the world. Bankers and companies from all over the world. A rich, prosperous country with no army to speak of, that has never been at war, is thriving.
Switzerland has not been snubbed for remaining neutral in both world wars, or not being involved in the USA Middle East crusades. It has not been attacked by ISIS or inundated with migrants.
It lies smack in the middle of Europe and is a wealthy nation happily doing business with one and all.
Explain that one.

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

It was part of their manifesto, the one they were voted in on. Whatever it was done for, it was also voted for by the public.

In addition to that there was 4 million UKIP voters who are obviously also quite keen on a vote.

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You have changed direction.

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Originally Posted by the leader

For me one argument wins it for BREXIT.
Switzerland is not in the EU,yet, despite Steven Hawking ranting on about science being the loser,the single biggest and most prestigious project in Europe, one most scientists would give their eye-teeth to work on is there.
Scientists from allover the world. Bankers and companies from all over the world. A rich, prosperous country with no army to speak of, that has never been at war, is thriving.
Switzerland has not been snubbed for remaining neutral in both world wars, or not being involved in the USA Middle East crusades. It has not been attacked by ISIS or inundated with migrants.
It lies smack in the middle of Europe and is a wealthy nation happily doing business with one and all.
Explain that one.

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'happily doing business with one and all'

Unfortunately in Switzerlands case that means hiding ill-gotten money for the most brutal dictatorships in the world. Forgive me for being apprehensive when you suggest that as our future.

As switzerland agree to greater tax transparency the money that makes it an attractive potential model to base ourselves on, will flow quickly out of the country.

Their politics is massively insular. I want to be a country that actively works with the rest of the world to achieve things that favour everyone. Switzerland is a xenophobic (unless you have a few million) place where the right wing is on the rise through campaigns of fear about migration.

Can Stephen Hawking rant?

Also, to attribute the actions of CERN to Switzerland is like attributing the actions of the UN to America. Nonsense.

Like many I would guess, I've just sat through a lengthy Q&A session Cameron & Obama on BBC News, what a bloody cheek having the president of the united states bleating on and acting a bully, about the UK having to stay in the EU