Argy bargey

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Argy bargey

Self righteous rant? Hardly. It's called defending myself and holding you to account for hysterical claims of imminent fascism, which again you don't seem to understand that if your portrayal is right then no one would be arriving here. But you arent right. The UK is not some imminent fascist state or remotely close to it. If you actually cared for such matters you would speak out against people like Sludge who in the last month has said "Tories should be scared" and "Liquidated". Pretty certain you were kinda cool with a democratic vote being overiden when it suited too, so not sure you are best places to judge. But you don't really care do you? It's about the 'threat' of fascism and how only your thinking can prevent it. No different to the clowns who claimed Corbyn was a threat of communism.

So again your example of "evil" is the UK assisting to shore, housing and feeding tens of thousands of people who want to live in this "evil" govts state? Your example of "evil" is a legionella test that meant everyone was moved off site to safer accommodation? And then you site a mural being painted over, which I agree seems unnecessary but it's not the norm to have such things at border controls anywhere. Your definition of "evil" sure is a pretty low bar.

Have you actually seen how refugees around the world live? Frequently in tented accommodation at or close to warzones where legions of soldiers are more of a concern than legionella.

You talk of accommodation as if we should have tens of thousands of warm empty flats waiting for everyone but how would that work? Do we keep them empty for years on while we wait? What about homeless people here?

Hasn't Labour committed to keeping the Bobby Stockholm? Does that make them "evil" and by definition, you too?

Or in fact is that a ridiculous, hyperbolic phrase used to try and comprehend am incredibly complex situation?

Honestly, the way you guys throw around the word fascism as if this is remotely comparable to how fascists have treated their victims, you should be ashamed.

Jewish people were not fleeing into 1930s Germany. To compare the two situations is as preposterous as claiming that acting on a legionella outbreak is evil.

Get back in the real world!

And another rant.

Where have I said the Government are fascist or are soon going to become fascist, but, as Eric said, we might be on a slippery slope.

This has been posted on here before, but how many of the twelve categories listed do you think the UK Government can be regarded as completely not guilty of?

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/01/31/the-12-early-warning-signs-of-fascism/

Being generous, I’d say 4,5,7 and 10 with two of them being definitely debatable. If you think any political party that “passes”, say, six of those tests are not going to at least be questioned as to their fascist credentials then I think you’re mistaken - of course, you’ll say that they don’t pass six of the tests, but I look forward to seeing how you explain why points 1,2,3, 8, 9 and 12 do not apply to the Government.

My definition of evil is clearly different to yours, but your habit of thinking your take on any subject should be an end to any debate is being seen in all of its glory in this thread - you’re hardly living up to your self proclaimed tendency to be even handed in your assessments.

[JamesWales]

Re: Argy bargey

Uuurghhh. This. Again.

BS then and BS now.

Sorry, what?

[JamesWales]

Re: Argy bargey

And another rant.

Where have I said the Government are fascist or are soon going to become fascist, but, as Eric said, we might be on a slippery slope.

This has been posted on here before, but how many of the twelve categories listed do you think the UK Government can be regarded as completely not guilty of?

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/01/31/the-12-early-warning-signs-of-fascism/

Being generous, I’d say 4,5,7 and 10 with two of them being definitely debatable. If you think any political party that “passes”, say, six of those tests are not going to at least be questioned as to their fascist credentials then I think you’re mistaken - of course, you’ll say that they don’t pass six of the tests, but I look forward to seeing how you explain why points 1,2,3, 8, 9 and 12 do not apply to the Government.

My definition of evil is clearly different to yours, but your habit of thinking your take on any subject should be an end to any debate is being seen in all of its glory in this thread - you’re hardly living up to your self proclaimed tendency to be even handed in your assessments.

Why are someone else's points rants, but yours aren't?

We aren't on a slippery slope for to fascism. You can delude yourself that we are, but as I said, people tend not to try to get into countries that are on the slippery slope to fascism, although perhaps you know more?

That test, as have been said before could apply to any country to varying degrees. It's like saying that a universal healthcare system or council housing or a strong military is a slippery slope to communism.
It's ridiculous and the evidence simply does not back up your points at all, and when it doesn't you just say...aaaaaah we could be on the slippery slope! It's literally no different to Qanon types saying Biden is making America communist.

I'm not sure what your definition of evil is but it seems to think that not condemning people calling for people to be scared online is cool, but removing people from accomodation due to a legionaire outbreak is the sign of impending fascism.

For what it's worth, we probably have the same definition of evil, yours is just blinded by hatred for the government even though the opposition will employ the exact same methods in 18 months time if they win the next general election

You can't keep screaming fascism and think that's making a point, Bob. Yesterday I watched a tiktok video of young men cheering as they were brought ashore to the UK. For you or any else to remotely compare that to how people were treated in countries that have genuinely been on the slippery slope to fascism at points throughout history is, sorry to say, historical ignorance of an extraordinary level.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Argy bargey

Why are someone else's points rants, but yours aren't?

We aren't on a slippery slope for to fascism. You can delude yourself that we are, but as I said, people tend not to try to get into countries that are on the slippery slope to fascism, although perhaps you know more?

That test, as have been said before could apply to any country to varying degrees. It's like saying that a universal healthcare system or council housing or a strong military is a slippery slope to communism.
It's ridiculous and the evidence simply does not back up your points at all, and when it doesn't you just say...aaaaaah we could be on the slippery slope! It's literally no different to Qanon types saying Biden is making America communist.

I'm not sure what your definition of evil is but it seems to think that not condemning people calling for people to be scared online is cool, but removing people from accomodation due to a legionaire outbreak is the sign of impending fascism.

For what it's worth, we probably have the same definition of evil, yours is just blinded by hatred for the government even though the opposition will employ the exact same methods in 18 months time if they win the next general election

You can't keep screaming fascism and think that's making a point, Bob. Yesterday I watched a tiktok video of young men cheering as they were brought ashore to the UK. For you or any else to remotely compare that to how people were treated in countries that have genuinely been on the slippery slope to fascism at points throughout history is, sorry to say, historical ignorance of an extraordinary level.

Lots of words used to, essentially, dodge the question I asked you. I’m hardly “screaming” fascism, I’m saying that the Government “passes” parts of the fascism test as defined by those twelve questions.

As for this point you keep banging on about, doesn’t it all depend on what life was like in your homeland? In Afghanistan for example, someone who was known to have helped the anti Taliban forces before the allied forces left would surely view a move to this country with its Government that some might think is blurring the line between right wing and fascist as the better option.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Argy bargey

Well this quite extraordinary article was published in the Observer the first Sunday after the EU referendum encouraging people to protest against the democratic result.

I recollect quite a lot of support for casting aside and annulling that vote. Certainly here we a mainstream politician from a mainstream party in an established newspaper effectively calling for that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-brexit-grave

I'm glad you are owning Brexit, how's controlling those borders going? Must be a piece of piss now.

[JamesWales]

Re: Argy bargey

Lots of words used to, essentially, dodge the question I asked you. I’m hardly “screaming” fascism, I’m saying that the Government “passes” parts of the fascism test as defined by those twelve questions.

As for this point you keep banging on about, doesn’t it all depend on what life was like in your homeland? In Afghanistan for example, someone who was known to have helped the anti Taliban forces before the allied forces left would surely view a move to this country with its Government that some might think is blurring the line between right wing and fascist as the better option.

That isn't some definitive test of fascism though, and as I said, by the same token it's like saying Corbyn or Biden or whomever are on the road to Communism. That's the kind of whackos who pump out this idea that everything is on the road to totalitarianism. It's like saying becoming a vegetarian or being okay at watercolours means you are developing Hitleresque qualities. All context is removed, which is probably why it's popular with conspiracy theorist types who thing hell is just around the corner.

By your second logic you presumably think that every other country they have passed through is further down the road to fascism and is more evil than us, because they have already escaped the Taliban. The biggest nationality by far in 2022 (when you were making exactly the same arguments) was Alabanian people, living in a European democracy with a socialist govt. So how does your logic work there?

Real life question now..

What would you do in this situation? Who is in the wrong? What's the answer? Is it okay to say "oh it will only be families etc?"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66585127

[JamesWales]

Re: Argy bargey

I'm glad you are owning Brexit, how's controlling those borders going? Must be a piece of piss now.

Not owning anything Eric. Just pointing out that a mainstream politician from a mainstream party in a mainstream newspaper was trying to overturn a democratic result a mere days after it happened.

If moving people off a boat for their safety due to legionella puts us on the road to fascism, I wonder where that put us? Bombing down the motorway, surely?

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Argy bargey

That isn't some definitive test of fascism though, and as I said, by the same token it's like saying Corbyn or Biden or whomever are on the road to Communism. That's the kind of whackos who pump out this idea that everything is on the road to totalitarianism. It's like saying becoming a vegetarian or being okay at watercolours means you are developing Hitleresque qualities. All context is removed, which is probably why it's popular with conspiracy theorist types who thing hell is just around the corner.

By your second logic you presumably think that every other country they have passed through is further down the road to fascism and is more evil than us, because they have already escaped the Taliban. The biggest nationality by far in 2022 (when you were making exactly the same arguments) was Alabanian people, living in a European democracy with a socialist govt. So how does your logic work there?

Real life question now..

What would you do in this situation? Who is in the wrong? What's the answer? Is it okay to say "oh it will only be families etc?"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66585127

It’s not for me to say. Unlike some, I’m not obsessed by the subject, so my knowledge of the subject isn’t detailed enough to claim I know all of the answers to the problem but that doesn’t mean I’m unable to voice my disapproval of the Government’s gaslighting. In the Afghanistan example I mentioned, the UK would most likely be the first choice for the people concerned.

Surprised at your lack of a reply to the questions I asked about fascism, all you’ve got is a load of whataboutism and the use of that word “context” which people who are losing an argument are so quick to turn to.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Argy bargey

Not owning anything Eric. Just pointing out that a mainstream politician from a mainstream party in a mainstream newspaper was trying to overturn a democratic result a mere days after it happened.

How do you 'try to overturn a democratic result' in a newspaper? Were people who thought Brexit was a) and/or b) undefined meant to not exist post referendum?

The reality is, brexit has been a disaster, not because of implementation but because everybody who voted for it was living in a fairytale land. I would rather politicians who don't change their mind to suit public opinion and who are willing to tell us things we don't want to hear. That's precisely what we need right now as the economy steams towards the cliff edge.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Argy bargey

It's in the Guardian, so it's probably all bollox.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/24/south-wales-suella-braverman-welsh-stradey-park-hotel

[Swiss Peter]

Re: Argy bargey

Sorry, what?

Oh, sorry! The very short answer was because I have no intention of entering a brexit debate (the utter futility of that dawned on me long ago) but will still always call out disingenuous nonsense on the matter whenever I see it.

The longer answer would have been pretty much what Eric has since posted anyway.

[Dorcus]

Re: Argy bargey

It's in the Guardian, so it's probably all bollox.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...dey-park-hotel

That's so harrowing and worrying. I might have expected that in the English shires but I thought the Welsh were better than that. Whatever happened to "we'll keep a welcome in the hillsides"?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Argy bargey

That's so harrowing and worrying. I might have expected that in the English shires but I thought the Welsh were better than that. Whatever happened to "we'll keep a welcome in the hillsides"?

The genuine concerns of locals have been poked and stirred by the far right and these people are being used

Patriotic Alternative turned up in Llantwit a few months ago and were sent on their way but even they poured petrol on things

[Dorcus]

Re: Argy bargey

The genuine concerns of locals have been poked and stirred by the far right and these people are being used

Patriotic Alternative turned up in Llantwit a few months ago and were sent on their way but even they poured petrol on things

What genuine concerns? Thats all based on myths stoked up by the rightwing. Why don't these people just live and let live? They might experience more happiness as a result.

[jon1959]

Re: Argy bargey

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66603767

The backlog of asylum cases in the UK has risen to a new record high, Home Office figures show.

More than 175,000 people were waiting for a decision on whether they will be granted refugee status at the end of June 2023 - up 44% from last year.

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has set a target of clearing the so-called legacy backlog by the end of the year.

Since his promise in December 2022, Home Office officials have cleared on average 2,061 cases a month.

With 67,870 cases remaining, the Home Office will have to process with 11,311 cases per month if it is to meet its target.