Institute For Fiscal Studies

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

Skinner was an MP for 49 years. Tony Benn was an MP for 47 years. Diane Abbott has been an MP for 37 years. Jeremy Corbyn was a MP for 41 years. But yeah their constituents saw them as too extreme.

The British people I said , not their constituents

Tony Benn , Skinner , Corbyn were all seen rightly or wrongly as too extreme to run the country

I mean corbyn ruled Islington but the thought of him in charge handed us a complete hammering nationally

You remember that ?

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

The British people I said , not their constituents

Tony Benn , Skinner , Corbyn were all seen rightly or wrongly as too extreme to run the country

I mean corbyn ruled Islington but the thought of him in charge handed us a complete hammering nationally

You remember that ?

The British people in electoral terms are just a collection of 600 odd constituents. When constituencies have been presented with left candidates they've elected them including Corbyn. Llew Smith, who I knew very well, was very left wing and is in the Guinness Book of Records for having the biggest majority in parliamentary history.

All this is by the by though. The point is that the Labour Party was a socialist party. It was hijacked by pink Tories. So now Britain does not have a socialist party for those who want that form of government.

[Keyser Soze]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

Skinner was an MP for 49 years. Tony Benn was an MP for 47 years. Diane Abbott has been an MP for 37 years. Jeremy Corbyn was a MP for 41 years. But yeah their constituents saw them as too extreme.

To be fair they were. Lenin was in power for a good old run. So was Che Guevara. So was
Putin. So has Xi.

Time in power doesn’t mean they weren’ extreme. It just meant their voters were also extreme, as is now the centre is foldin, or there were happy to have “one of us” running their local seat. Local peer pressure, or beer pressure, can make people think and vote like sheep.

One thing I will say to Skinner is that he lived by his values, as did Benn and Foot. On the one hand it was Maggie, and these guys on the other side. Very opposite, but at least lived their values and practiced what they preached. Even Blair never pretended he was Socialist - he was honest that he was a Thatcherite with an improved view on social justice.

You can’t say that for Abbott. Nor Kinnock. These were champagne socialiats. Preached Socialism higher taxation and power of the state, but Abbott loaded up on private education, while both the slippery weasely Kinnocks dodged tax working for the EU and filled their pockets for £15m in a tax have. Weasels.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

To be fair they were. Lenin was in power for a good old run. So was Che Guevara. So was
Putin. So has Xi.

Time in power doesn’t mean they weren’ extreme. It just meant their voters were also extreme, as is now the centre is foldin, or there were happy to have “one of us” running their local seat. Local peer pressure, or beer pressure, can make people think and vote like sheep.

One thing I will say to Skinner is that he lived by his values, as did Benn and Foot. On the one hand it was Maggie, and these guys on the other side. Very opposite, but at least lived their values and practiced what they preached. Even Blair never pretended he was Socialist - he was honest that he was a Thatcherite with an improved view on social justice.

You can’t say that for Abbott. Nor Kinnock. These were champagne socialiats. Preached Socialism higher taxation and power of the state, but Abbott loaded up on private education, while both the slippery weasely Kinnocks dodged tax working for the EU and filled their pockets for £15m in a tax have. Weasels.

Lenin did not have to stand for re election. Guevara was in power for just over a year. The MPs I mentioned weren't imo extreme but, if they were, that just supports my point. Which is that you don't have to ape the Tories to get elected.

Actually that wasn't my main point either. It was that the ever-increasing lurch of Labour to the right has robbed electors of a choice. They can now vote Tory or Tory Lite. Parties obviously have to compromise to some extent or else they'll die political virgins, never getting their hands dirty and achieving nothing. But they should have certain principles that are non negotiable. For Labour that was socialism. It was embedded in its constitution.

Kinnock was and us a ****.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

Lenin did not have to stand for re election. Guevara was in power for just over a year. The MPs I mentioned weren't imo extreme but, if they were, that just supports my point. Which is that you don't have to ape the Tories to get elected. Actually that wasn't my main point either. It was that the ever-increasing lurch of Labour to the right has robbed electors of a choice. They can now vote Tory or Tory Lite.

Kinnock was and us a ****.

I would rather a left of centre party in government than the tories

It's all very romantic pining for socialism but corbyn put socialism to the people in 2019

The result was the biggest defeat for 100 years

Some socialists , most maybe come from the heart but it's completely unrealistic

Galloway says he's a socialist , I can't see many people getting behind him

Maybe a new left party will emerge but it will never succeed , people just ain't interested these days

I would rather vote left wing than tory but the old Labour Party had to lose some of its principles or never get voted in

You can't change people's lives in Labour party left wing focus groups or fringe meetings at Blackpool conferences

Those days are long gone

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

Lenin did not have to stand for re election. Guevara was in power for just over a year. The MPs I mentioned weren't imo extreme but, if they were, that just supports my point. Which is that you don't have to ape the Tories to get elected.

Actually that wasn't my main point either. It was that the ever-increasing lurch of Labour to the right has robbed electors of a choice. They can now vote Tory or Tory Lite. Parties obviously have to compromise to some extent or else they'll die political virgins, never getting their hands dirty and achieving nothing. But they should have certain principles that are non negotiable. For Labour that was socialism. It was embedded in its constitution.

Kinnock was and us a ****.

Kinnock faced up to the hard left who ruined any chance of defeating Thatcher

He then went all potty over europe and money

[jon1959]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

The British people I said , not their constituents

Tony Benn , Skinner , Corbyn were all seen rightly or wrongly as too extreme to run the country

I mean corbyn ruled Islington but the thought of him in charge handed us a complete hammering nationally

You remember that ?

Do you remember 2017?

The Corbyn led Labour Party got 40% of the vote (up 9% from 2015).

The Starmer led Labour Party is currently on 41% according to the opinion polls (BBC Poll of Polls yesterday).

Corbyn was slaughtered by the UK press. Starmer is feted by the UK press. There is a reason for that. Corbyn ran in 2017 on a manifesto of plans that were supported by a majority of the UK people.

Starmer is running on a manifesto that barely has any plans other than 'stick to the Tory plans but be a bit less corrupt'.

Corbyn crashed and burned in 2019 because of Brexit - the Starmer policy that was incoherent and dishonest. Corbyn was too weak to change that.

But there is no reason to think that British people will not support clear, ambitious and radical governmental programmes as evidenced by the support for Labour's 2017 plans. There is every reason to think that the UK establishment will resist that as they always have done - but I have more faith in the people than you seem to, Sludge.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

Do you remember 2017?

The Corbyn led Labour Party got 40% of the vote (up 9% from 2015).

The Starmer led Labour Party is currently on 41% according to the opinion polls (BBC Poll of Polls yesterday).

Corbyn was slaughtered by the UK press. Starmer is feted by the UK press. There is a reason for that. Corbyn ran in 2017 on a manifesto of plans that were supported by a majority of the UK people.

Starmer is running on a manifesto that barely has any plans other than 'stick to the Tory plans but be a bit less corrupt'.

Corbyn crashed and burned in 2019 because of Brexit - the Starmer policy that was incoherent and dishonest. Corbyn was too weak to change that.

But there is no reason to think that British people will not support clear, ambitious and radical governmental programmes as evidenced by the support for Labour's 2017 plans. There is every reason to think that the UK establishment will resist that as they always have done - but I have more faith in the people than you seem to, Sludge.

I feel you too are also living in the past

A new centre left party could keep the Tories out permanently but we are too busy reading biographies of the likes of Tony bloody Benn

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

I feel you too are also living in the past

A new centre left party could keep the Tories out permanently but we are too busy reading biographies of the likes of Tony bloody Benn

I’m still waiting to see concrete evidence that Starmer’s Labour are a left leaning party in this election campaign.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

I would rather a left of centre party in government than the tories

It's all very romantic pining for socialism but corbyn put socialism to the people in 2019

The result was the biggest defeat for 100 years

Some socialists , most maybe come from the heart but it's completely unrealistic

Galloway says he's a socialist , I can't see many people getting behind him

Maybe a new left party will emerge but it will never succeed , people just ain't interested these days

I would rather vote left wing than tory but the old Labour Party had to lose some of its principles or never get voted in

You can't change people's lives in Labour party left wing focus groups or fringe meetings at Blackpool conferences

Those days are long gone

You consistently ignore my point. If you and people like you want a left leaning party rather than a socialist party then you should have started your own rather than hijack the Labour Party.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

I’m still waiting to see concrete evidence that Starmer’s Labour are a left leaning party in this election campaign.

I think there's a very good reason for this.

I absolutely understand why people will vote Labour to oust the Tories. I won't, but I get it.

IMO what will happen is this. Starmer will win a handsome majority for his Tory Lite policies. He will point to his landslide and to Blair's before him and to Corbyn's defeat and will say, "See, this is what people want - Conservatism but watered down a bit and less corrupt." If, like Sludge you're OK with that and don't really want to see any major changes to the way society is run then fine. If you actually want a radical Labour Party then tough, your vote has helped ensure you never get it.

You reap what you sow.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

You consistently ignore my point. If you and people like you want a left leaning party rather than a socialist party then you should have started your own rather than hijack the Labour Party.

The labour party always had a large moderate base

It was the tub thumpers of Benn and the left that made it unelectable

I couldn't care less about tradition if that tradition means left leaning and moderate policies are never implemented because the left scare everyone off

I think a lot of the left are more concerned with listening to each other say how great socialism is and slapping each other on the back than accepting their time is gone

You can be moderate and get things done

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

I think there's a very good reason for this.

I absolutely understand why people will vote Labour to oust the Tories. I won't, but I get it.

IMO what will happen is this. Starmer will win a handsome majority for his Tory Lite policies. He will point to his landslide and to Blair's before him and to Corbyn's defeat and will say, "See, this is what people want - Conservatism but watered down a bit and less corrupt." If, like Sludge you're OK with that and don't really want to see any major changes to the way society is run then fine. If you actually want a radical Labour Party then tough, your vote has helped ensure you never get it.

You reap what you sow.

If you want radical changes to the way society is run you may as well go and live on a hippy commune because we have to live within the barriers of a a capitalist , Liberal sort of concensus

The Green Party have some superb ideas , very socialist but the money isn't there to back up their plans

[Wales-Bales]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

Corbyn was slaughtered by the UK press. Starmer is feted by the UK press. There is a reason for that. Corbyn ran in 2017 on a manifesto of plans that were supported by a majority of the UK people.

That's everything you need to know right there.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Re: Institute For Fiscal Studies

The labour party always had a large moderate base

It was the tub thumpers of Benn and the left that made it unelectable

I couldn't care less about tradition if that tradition means left leaning and moderate policies are never implemented because the left scare everyone off

I think a lot of the left are more concerned with listening to each other say how great socialism is and slapping each other on the back than accepting their time is gone

You can be moderate and get things done

It has always had a strong moderate base. It always was socialist though. Now it doesn't pretend to be. The SDP split from the Labour Party which is fair enough, how it should be done. How it should not have been done is to transform the party into SDP v. 2.0.

Anyway I won't be voting Tory Lite. You will and you'll get exactly what you want so I guess we'll both be content.