Amsterdam Violence

[Dorcus]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

Easy to say. Harder to do.

Where there's a will there's a way

[JamesWales]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

Where there's a will there's a way

I think that's part of the problem. The will isn't there as much as we would hope because of Iran's influence and connection to Hamas and a lot of countries in the region being content with Hamas being got rid of once and for all.

[Dorcus]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

I think that's part of the problem. The will isn't there as much as we would hope because of Iran's influence and connection to Hamas and a lot of countries in the region being content with Hamas being got rid of once and for all.

I think the will isn't there between Israel, the USA and the West in particular. It doesn't suit their agenda. I'm not sure about Iran because it will largely be down to what the west might offer. However the longer this atrocity continues there's no doubt normal folk want the authorities, belligerents and vested interests to reach out for a settlement. No matter how difficult it's the only way.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

https://youtu.be/lwobmhPNu2g?si=qOcQ0pTDcpZAmt1-

Dutch MP in Parliament

Another conspiracy theorist like Owen Jones etc

Ah well

[JamesWales]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

I think the will isn't there between Israel, the USA and the West in particular. It doesn't suit their agenda. I'm not sure about Iran because it will largely be down to what the west might offer. However the longer this atrocity continues there's no doubt normal folk want the authorities, belligerents and vested interests to reach out for a settlement. No matter how difficult it's the only way.

I agree.

But it's always very difficult. Take for instance Ukraine - and I don't suggest the suffering of the Ukrainian people is similar to the Palestinians here btw -but take Ukraine. Everyone wants peace but the most likely scenario is drawing the line where it currently sits, with Russia taking the east. Easy isn't it, but the consequences are significant and wholly difficult to achieve.

I can't see peace with Hamas still as an entity. Tbh I can't see lasting peace with Netenyahu in charge either. They are both plainly a barrier to the solution.

Either way we can find peace but I doubt it will last. You just need one of the neighbouring countries to elect or cede power to a party who don't recognise Israel's right to exist in any capacity and the whole cycle starts again.

[Dorcus]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

I agree.

But it's always very difficult. Take for instance Ukraine - and I don't suggest the suffering of the Ukrainian people is similar to the Palestinians here btw -but take Ukraine. Everyone wants peace but the most likely scenario is drawing the line where it currently sits, with Russia taking the east. Easy isn't it, but the consequences are significant and wholly difficult to achieve.

I can't see peace with Hamas still as an entity. Tbh I can't see lasting peace with Netenyahu in charge either. They are both plainly a barrier to the solution.

Either way we can find peace but I doubt it will last. You just need one of the neighbouring countries to elect or cede power to a party who don't recognise Israel's right to exist in any capacity and the whole cycle starts again.

I don't agree it's much easier than that. The West must concede mistakes have historically been made and must try to seek peace with Iran by confirming there will be changes to the status quo. As in Ukraine even if borders need to be redrawn it's a better solution than ongoing innocent deaths.

[jon1959]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

I agree.

But it's always very difficult. Take for instance Ukraine - and I don't suggest the suffering of the Ukrainian people is similar to the Palestinians here btw -but take Ukraine. Everyone wants peace but the most likely scenario is drawing the line where it currently sits, with Russia taking the east. Easy isn't it, but the consequences are significant and wholly difficult to achieve.

I can't see peace with Hamas still as an entity. Tbh I can't see lasting peace with Netenyahu in charge either. They are both plainly a barrier to the solution.

Either way we can find peace but I doubt it will last. You just need one of the neighbouring countries to elect or cede power to a party who don't recognise Israel's right to exist in any capacity and the whole cycle starts again.

We could all start by not pretending this is a symmetrical conflict and that it is one that has been building for a century, not 13 months.

I have come around to agreeing with what Feedback said on this board about 15 years ago - the only solution is a single democratic state with equal rights for Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs.

The two-state solution that most of the world supports and that western governments have recently re-discovered, is unviable. It might have been viable in 1947-8 when the UN put it forward; it might have been viable after Oslo in 1993; but after another 30+ years of settlement building, ethnic cleansing and systematic destruction of Palestinian homes and lands it is no longer viable - even for the less than 22% of Palestine that was under discussion at Oslo. Viable didn't mean right or just, but it might have been doable.

Now the only possible outcomes are a single democratic state or a single Zionist (Jewish supremacist state) built on the final ruins of Palestinian homes and on Palestinian bones. The latter is the direction of travel - a settler-colonial state of Israel from the river to the sea with second class citizens or guest workers supporting the first class citizens defined by an ethno religious label - most of them incomers from Eastern Europe and North America.

The 'one democratic state' vision is rapidly gaining traction and support - not just amongst Palestinians, but also anti-Zionist Jews inside and outside Israel, and major parts of the wider solidarity movement.

The obstacles to any kind of settlement are not Iran or sections of the Palestinian resistance movement - even the violent, autocratic, Islamist elements of it. The obstacles are the western backers and enablers of Israel - primarily the USA, but also Germany (the most pro-Israel state in the EU and the second biggest supplier of arms for the genocide), the UK, France and Canada.

[JamesWales]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

We could all start by not pretending this is a symmetrical conflict and that it is one that has been building for a century, not 13 months.

I have come around to agreeing with what Feedback said on this board about 15 years ago - the only solution is a single democratic state with equal rights for Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs.

The two-state solution that most of the world supports and that western governments have recently re-discovered, is unviable. It might have been viable in 1947-8 when the UN put it forward; it might have been viable after Oslo in 1993; but after another 30+ years of settlement building, ethnic cleansing and systematic destruction of Palestinian homes and lands it is no longer viable - even for the less than 22% of Palestine that was under discussion at Oslo. Viable didn't mean right or just, but it might have been doable.

Now the only possible outcomes are a single democratic state or a single Zionist (Jewish supremacist state) built on the final ruins of Palestinian homes and on Palestinian bones. The latter is the direction of travel - a settler-colonial state of Israel from the river to the sea with second class citizens or guest workers supporting the first class citizens defined by an ethno religious label - most of them incomers from Eastern Europe and North America.

The 'one democratic state' vision is rapidly gaining traction and support - not just amongst Palestinians, but also anti-Zionist Jews inside and outside Israel, and major parts of the wider solidarity movement.

The obstacles to any kind of settlement are not Iran or sections of the Palestinian resistance movement - even the violent, autocratic, Islamist elements of it. The obstacles are the western backers and enablers of Israel - primarily the USA, but also Germany (the most pro-Israel state in the EU and the second biggest supplier of arms for the genocide), the UK, France and Canada.

You are right, it has of course been brewing for decades, if not centuries.

I am pretty sure you need to include violent Islamists as a part of the obstacles to peace though. Especially if you are going to include the likes of Canada and France. You wouldnt even get past the front door of th negotiating room without acknowledging that.

[jon1959]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

After Amsterdam came Paris....

https://www.thecanary.co/global/world-news/2024/11/15/israeli-football-hooligans-france/

This probably requires a health warning as it is from The Canary and may cause excessive spluttering and frothing in some quarters!

[Dorcus]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

After Amsterdam came Paris....

https://www.thecanary.co/global/world-news/2024/11/15/israeli-football-hooligans-france/

This probably requires a health warning as it is from The Canary and may cause excessive spluttering and frothing in some quarters!

They think they're in Gaza

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

After Amsterdam came Paris....

https://www.thecanary.co/global/world-news/2024/11/15/israeli-football-hooligans-france/

This probably requires a health warning as it is from The Canary and may cause excessive spluttering and frothing in some quarters!

I would suggest JW bends over and gets ready

And indeed , other apologists for the anti semitism crap

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

They think they're in Gaza

Bloody anti semitic pro Palestinian extremists!

God bless Israel

[Dorcus]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

Bloody anti semitic pro Palestinian extremists!

God bless Israel

Thank goodness we've finally put this thread to bed. We move on!

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

After Amsterdam came Paris....

https://www.thecanary.co/global/world-news/2024/11/15/israeli-football-hooligans-france/

This probably requires a health warning as it is from The Canary and may cause excessive spluttering and frothing in some quarters!

And that's the problem with social media. The website headlines 'preposterous sentences' handed down to three extinction rebellion activists for causing £6,000 of damage. 320 hours of community service between them..

[JamesWales]

Re: Amsterdam Violence

I would suggest JW bends over and gets ready

And indeed , other apologists for the anti semitism crap

Are you back to claiming it didn't happen? 😩