Farmers are revolting

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Farmers are revolting

Is this what it's about? They are protesting about the wrong thing arent they?! I think the subsidies are potentially better spent now we can determine the criteria ourselves. Either way, we certainly haven't seen large protests over the changes unlike we have with the inheritance tax changes.

They probably know more about their own industry than you and I and when there is the level of anger there is it's best to acknowledge there is probably something in it. Personally, as with nearly every protest, strike or civil disobedience, the worst case scenario they all fear is likely to be somewhat exaggerated, but that doesn't mean there is nothing in it or that they aren't right to stand up for themselves and their industry on the topic.

At the very least I am sure you would concede that this should have been in the party manifesto for the election only a few months ago?

Wow so people who go on strike should be listened to and the government should give into their demands, good to know how you feel about things.

We asked for 10% last year and I got about 3.2% in the end. Cash or card sir?

[Rjk]

Re: Farmers are revolting

So tax them if it's removed from agricultural use. Not when it is passed on for continual use in agriculture.

There is a reason they are so furious and it's not because they are passing on millions to their kids - if that were the case they wouldn't be standing knee deep in shite day in day out.

Yes it would make sense to value agricultural land based on its potential turnover. Then if it gets changed to other uses hit them with capital gains tax for the increase in value.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Farmers are revolting

Yes it would make sense to value agricultural land based on its potential turnover. Then if it gets changed to other uses hit them with capital gains tax for the increase in value.

But wouldn't this still mean someone could own all the land, tennant it out as a income stream and pass that on tax free when they die.

[JamesWales]

Re: Farmers are revolting

Wow so people who go on strike should be listened to and the government should give into their demands, good to know how you feel about things.

We asked for 10% last year and I got about 3.2% in the end. Cash or card sir?

Of course people who go on strike should be listened to.

What's the story?

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Farmers are revolting

Of course people who go on strike should be listened to.

What's the story?

I think the more important point is whether the government should buckle because it's unpopular or 'the wrong fight'

In a thread about rail strikes you wrote the following:

Firstly, after decades of rising passenger numbers, they absolutely collapsed during Covid. All the workers were kept in work not because they worked in a viable industry but through government support, paid for by us (or more accurately, our children). I think that makes a difference here.

You used that point to justify why, although you agreed with their right to strike, you felt they were on the wrong side of the argument and shouldn't be appeased. Later you infer that they are really being a bit selfish and shortsighted. The key point for me is that you felt they were 'kept in work' not because of their industry being viable but because of government support (which was the norm during COVID).

Let's be real here, farms are kept in business (or 'viable') because of government support, paid by us so there are definitely similarities. Shouldn't farmers be a bit more grateful for that like the rail workers?

[JamesWales]

Re: Farmers are revolting

I think the more important point is whether the government should buckle because it's unpopular or 'the wrong fight'

In a thread about rail strikes you wrote the following:



You used that point to justify why, although you agreed with their right to strike, you felt they were on the wrong side of the argument and shouldn't be appeased. Later you infer that they are really being a bit selfish and shortsighted. The key point for me is that you felt they were 'kept in work' not because of their industry being viable but because of government support (which was the norm during COVID).

Let's be real here, farms are kept in business (or 'viable') because of government support, paid by us so there are definitely similarities. Shouldn't farmers be a bit more grateful for that like the rail workers?

I like how you check out my history. We should get pissed some day.

The fact remains it's a stupid policy from a stupid government

[Rjk]

Re: Farmers are revolting

But wouldn't this still mean someone could own all the land, tennant it out as a income stream and pass that on tax free when they die.

if it wasn't worth very much then yes.
at the moment it's suddenly worth a lot - i.e. it gets planning permission to build houses on it for example then it should be taxed.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Farmers are revolting

if it wasn't worth very much then yes.
at the moment it's suddenly worth a lot - i.e. it gets planning permission to build houses on it for example then it should be taxed.

That would be subject to cgt wouldn't it?

[Rjk]

Re: Farmers are revolting

That would be subject to cgt wouldn't it?

yeah I would assume so.

if the land Is only turning over £50k a year and is only usable for farming then there's no way it can be worth millions.

if it subsequently gets changed to residential land and is worth millions then they should have to pay CGT?

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Farmers are revolting

yeah I would assume so.

if the land Is only turning over £50k a year and is only usable for farming then there's no way it can be worth millions.

if it subsequently gets changed to residential land and is worth millions then they should have to pay CGT?

But I think they already do have to pay that and we still have a problem with agricultural land being used as an avoidance vehicle so that can't be the extent of why people do it. That was why I assumed it must involve tennant farmers.

I think farmers only receive relief on the assessed agricultural value of the land so if land prices are high because of tax avoidance then farmers will suffer long term.

I'm with you in that the valuations make no sense in terms of agricultural yield but that should be something we look to fix.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Farmers are revolting

But I think they already do have to pay that and we still have a problem with agricultural land being used as an avoidance vehicle so that can't be the extent of why people do it. That was why I assumed it must involve tennant farmers.

I think farmers only receive relief on the assessed agricultural value of the land so if land prices are high because of tax avoidance then farmers will suffer long term.

I'm with you in that the valuations make no sense in terms of agricultural yield but that should be something we look to fix.

Investment in and ownership of agricultural land has vastly outperformed non agricultural land over more than 30 years. Some of this is due to some of the unanticipated consequences of the EU CAP. Basically people got a flat rate subsidy per hectare of land as long as they were considered a farmer and met certain environmental conditions.

You could get supplemental subsidies for environmentally worthy activities. When this system first came in landowners, who in many instances left the farming to tenants, took the "entitlement" and leased it the active farmer. Later as rules tightened and the tenant got the subsidy the landowner simply increased the rents to the tenant.

For the environmental subsidies, at least in England, government found it more environmentally attractive to enter into contract with the landowner. For instance if, say The National Trust had 150 tenants it was a bigger bang for buck to have one agreement with the NT and let them have a back to back contract with their tenants to ensure they delivered the environment goods and penalise them if they didn't. In essence tenant farmers got shafted whilst landowners won.

Since Brexit, subsidies are now far more weighted towards environmentally worthy schemes. Still all the while agricultural land continues to appreciate and give very good returns, especially when you factor in tax breaks.

In 2023 around 60% of farm sales and within that a disproportionate amount of the bigger farms were made to previously non-farming purchasers. Some lifestyle changers but mainly private and institutional investors. It will be interesting to see what happens to agricultural land prices in the future if the inheritance tax changes take hold.

[The Bloop]

Re: Farmers are revolting

Another protest today.
Nigel Farage is there all decked out in what looks like brand new countryside clobber, backing the farmers, asking them to vote for him so he can reverse the Inheritance tax changes.
At the same time, in the Sky News studio, a farmer is being interviewed saying that Farage getting in will be the worst thing for the industry, as he'll strike a trade deal with Trump allowing cheap low quality food imports.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Farmers are revolting

I like how you check out my history. We should get pissed some day.

The fact remains it's a stupid policy from a stupid government

In other words you have had your arse served on a plate

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Farmers are revolting

Most of the farmers deserve trump and farage screwing them over

Tight arse tory voters

[JamesWales]

Re: Farmers are revolting

In other words you have had your arse served on a plate

Odd take, even for you!