OH Angie Baby

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: OH Angie Baby

I got it from the gov.uk website. There was a freedom of information request to HMT.

HMRC

HMCTS

The above is UK government and does not include local government parking fines and so on.

Intersting debate on uncollected financial penalties. The bit I was looking for was the breakdown of the £5b that government at all levels (I didn't realise that government at all levels excluded local government but thanks for the clarification) collected and how it is broken down.

I think if you can give that granularity then it helps to discuss whether that £5 billion was accrued from illiberal regulation or not.

[Feedback]

Re: OH Angie Baby

Intersting debate on uncollected financial penalties. The bit I was looking for was the breakdown of the £5b that government at all levels (I didn't realise that government at all levels excluded local government but thanks for the clarification) collected and how it is broken down.

I think if you can give that granularity then it helps to discuss whether that £5 billion was accrued from illiberal regulation or not.

My earlier comment should have said around £9bn including LAs. There is detail in those links, you've just got to read them and go down the rabbit hole

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: OH Angie Baby

My earlier comment should have said around £9bn including LAs. There is detail in those links, you've just got to read them and go down the rabbit hole

Ah the old, I'm talking bollocks, I have no clue what the figures comprise of and you just need to do your own research line.

So, of this now, £9b, what amounts do you think are irregularly snaffled by the state and why. Educate the blind, otherwise people might think you just look like a blowhard with a bit more time on their hands!

[Feedback]

Re: OH Angie Baby

Ah the old, I'm talking bollocks, I have no clue what the figures comprise of and you just need to do your own research line.

So, of this now, £9b, what amounts do you think are irregularly snaffled by the state and why. Educate the blind, otherwise people might think you just look like a blowhard with a bit more time on their hands!

Youve not actually set out what it is you want to see, you've just said provide more detail. Thats pretty open ended.

My point is that the government of all levels issues fines and penalties without court approval. There is little right to appeal

If you think thats acceptable and fair then youre welcome to that opinion, but I disagree with it.

Anyway, ive bought some new vinyl today and that's my evening sorted.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: OH Angie Baby

Youve not actually set out what it is you want to see, you've just said provide more detail. Thats pretty open ended.

My point is that the government of all levels issues fines and penalties without court approval. There is little right to appeal

If you think thats acceptable and fair then youre welcome to that opinion, but I disagree with it.

Anyway, ive bought some new vinyl today and that's my evening sorted.

Are you saying the, now, £9b of fines and penalties you can't breakdown or say which ones should not have been levied were all without court approval? If so on what basis.

That said, there may be others on this Board who think that you spending more time with new vinyl would make all their Christmases come at once.

Obviously that would be me using the literary device of hyperbole though!

[The Bloop]

Re: OH Angie Baby

HMRC will fine you £100 even if you owe no tax. In fact, they can fine you up to £1600 per tax year, even when no tax is due. There is no penalty appeal, its the power of the corrupt state against you, and you will lose.

Sludge etc are perfectly happy with state corruption that takes money from the individual and puts it into the public purse. Governments at all levels make over £5bn per annum in penalties and fines....That's around £100 per person per year they take from us.

Instead of focusing on the £5bn in fines and penalties (not sure if that's issued or collected), why not focus on the £47bn tax gap? ie the difference in what should have been paid and the amount that was. If it was paid on time, fines and penalties wouldn't need to be issued

[Feedback]

Re: OH Angie Baby

Instead of focusing on the £5bn in fines and penalties (not sure if that's issued or collected), why not focus on the £47bn tax gap? ie the difference in what should have been paid and the amount that was. If it was paid on time, fines and penalties wouldn't need to be issued

non-sequitur.

You can focus on the tax gap and also have a tax system that is fair and does not penalise people for not reporting they don't owe any tax.

if you want to know more about the tax gap, read here. its a bit less sensationalist than some want you to believe.

for the underlying reasons of the gap, see here

I'd be interested in hearing your suggestions for closing the gap...

[Feedback]

Re: OH Angie Baby

Are you saying the, now, £9b of fines and penalties you can't breakdown or say which ones should not have been levied were all without court approval? If so on what basis.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not. You must be aware council's can issue parking fines without having to go to court.

That said, there may be others on this Board who think that you spending more time with new vinyl would make all their Christmases come at once.

Obviously that would be me using the literary device of hyperbole though!

its so important to have original thought, you want to try it sometime.

[The Bloop]

Re: OH Angie Baby

non-sequitur.

You can focus on the tax gap and also have a tax system that is fair and does not penalise people for not reporting they don't owe any tax.

if you want to know more about the tax gap, read here. its a bit less sensationalist than some want you to believe.

for the underlying reasons of the gap, see here

I'd be interested in hearing your suggestions for closing the gap...

The £100 fine is applied automatically. A quick phone call (after waiting ages to get through) would probably have resulted in it being reversed.
As for the tax gap (I haven't clicked on your links), the move to quarterly digital reporting will help, as will anything that prevents companies dissolving then reappearing 'under new management' a day later, leaving huge VAT and Corporation Tax bills unpaid.
What ideas do you have?

[Feedback]

Re: OH Angie Baby

The £100 fine is applied automatically. A quick phone call (after waiting ages to get through) would probably have resulted in it being reversed.

no, if a tax return is due then the penalty stands, even if no tax is due.

As for the tax gap (I haven't clicked on your links), the move to quarterly digital reporting will help, as will anything that prevents companies dissolving then reappearing 'under new management' a day later, leaving huge VAT and Corporation Tax bills unpaid.
What ideas do you have?

how do you close the gap - well a lot of the assumptions that underpin the estimate are exactly that - assumptions. They may be wrong. HMRC already have systems in place for VAT to stop companies ceasing trading one day and the directors starting a newco the next, so I can't see how changing the current legislatory framework for setting up newcos is going to make a difference.

What we have seen over the past twenty years is the gap getting smaller - that either means HMRC are getting better at collection or are getting better at estimating, or a mix of both.

MTD and quarterly reporting will have a negligible impact on closing the gap. The largest element of the gap by far is from small businesses and corporation tax, and not, as some would have you believe, the wealthy or criminals. It certainly isn't from sole traders and landlords, which is what MTD is all about.

[The Bloop]

Re: OH Angie Baby

no, if a tax return is due then the penalty stands, even if no tax is due.


how do you close the gap - well a lot of the assumptions that underpin the estimate are exactly that - assumptions. They may be wrong. HMRC already have systems in place for VAT to stop companies ceasing trading one day and the directors starting a newco the next, so I can't see how changing the current legislatory framework for setting up newcos is going to make a difference.

What we have seen over the past twenty years is the gap getting smaller - that either means HMRC are getting better at collection or are getting better at estimating, or a mix of both.

MTD and quarterly reporting will have a negligible impact on closing the gap. The largest element of the gap by far is from small businesses and corporation tax, and not, as some would have you believe, the wealthy or criminals. It certainly isn't from sole traders and landlords, which is what MTD is all about.

My wife was fined for filing a day late - she called saying the our internet was down and the penalty was removed.

[Feedback]

Re: OH Angie Baby

My wife was fined for filing a day late - she called saying the our internet was down and the penalty was removed.

Thats reasonable excuse for circumstances outside of your control.

I'm not talking about that, im talking about not filing a return and receiving penalties of up to £1600 for each tax year.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: OH Angie Baby

I'm not sure if you're serious or not. You must be aware council's can issue parking fines without having to go to court.


its so important to have original thought, you want to try it sometime.

Perhaps you don't always read what you write. You are stating that £9b was raised in fines and penalties without court approval. It is probable that a significant amount, like parking fines fell into that category but then a lot may not.

You are spewing numbers around like confetti and when asked to justify them hide behind the old shroud of "do your own research". The HMRC accounts show fines and penalties of £2.5b and the Hansard stuff shows a chat about unrecovered amounts. Then some ludicrous mean average of £100 per annum for every individual as if saints and sinners are equally punished when in reality people's taxes local and national would probably increase if the "sinners" were not penalised.

Setting that aside. What fines and penalties would you like to see abolished or significantly reduced that would make a major dent in your £9b: Speeding, parking, tax evasion, fly tipping, dog fouling and littering,? What?

The overwhelming majority of HMRC fines and penalties are for default of taxes. Here is the latest batch.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/publishing-details-of-deliberate-tax-defaulters-pddd/current-list-of-deliberate-tax-defaulters

I guess you are siding with this bunch in pursuing whatever point you are trying to make!

[The Bloop]

Re: OH Angie Baby

Thats reasonable excuse for circumstances outside of your control.

I'm not talking about that, im talking about not filing a return and receiving penalties of up to £1600 for each tax year.

How would HMRC know that no tax was due if a return wasn't filed?
If a taxpayer is sent a return to complete, but they know they dont need to file one, either tell HMRC why, or file one on time showing that no tax is due. Doing either will prevent the penalty being applied.

[Feedback]

Re: OH Angie Baby

Setting that aside. What fines and penalties would you like to see abolished or significantly reduced that would make a major dent in your £9b: Speeding, parking, tax evasion, fly tipping, dog fouling and littering,? What?

unless you haven't worked it out my Bête noire is HMRC and their rather indiscriminate penalty regime.