OH Angie Baby

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Re: OH Angie Baby

How would HMRC know that no tax was due if a return wasn't filed?
If a taxpayer is sent a return to complete, but they know they dont need to file one, either tell HMRC why, or file one on time showing that no tax is due. Doing either will prevent the penalty being applied.

what makes you think a return is not due? a taxpayer can owe no tax but still have to file a return. Even when no tax is due the penalty regime is automatic penalties of up to £1600 - see here, specifically the para about late filing penalties.

I might be a sole trader with no profits, or have interest income with no tax deducted at source (but still below the personal threshold), or dividend income, or be a high earner that has a P11 and benefits in kind already collected via my PAYE tax code.

It does not follow that just because you have to file a return that you have tax to pay. I appreciate not everyone can get head around this, but I do believe even the ape creatures of Sumatra have mastered this point.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: OH Angie Baby

unless you haven't worked it out my Bête noire is HMRC and their rather indiscriminate penalty regime.

So all that stuff about £9b was just, well hyperbole? What you most care about is about a quarter of a billion of that. Got it!

[Heathblue]

Re: OH Angie Baby

So, at the time of the opening post, Ange owed the wedge to HMRC but has recently settled her debt because she got caught and is now fully exhonerated waiting in the wings to per her hat into the leadership contest??????

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Re: OH Angie Baby

So all that stuff about £9b was just, well hyperbole? What you most care about is about a quarter of a billion of that. Got it!

If you want to interpret it like that, go ahead. But it would be an incorrect interpretation, given parking tickets collect over £1bn nationally, and fixed penalty notices for speeding are another £150m, that's at least £1.5bn in non court approved penalties and fines for, inter alia, late filing tax returns, speeding and car parking.

given we can expect other penalties and fines across the board, I'd say the true figure is more in line with my initial comment. Whatever the figure is, the government is taking advantage of the little man and you'd have to be a special kind of stupid not see it.

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Re: OH Angie Baby

So, at the time of the opening post, Ange owed the wedge to HMRC but has recently settled her debt because she got caught and is now fully exhonerated waiting in the wings to per her hat into the leadership contest??????

pretty much yes.

I remember the poster DTM, when the Tories were in power, made a post saying it is incumbent on all of us to hold the government of the day to account. apparently DTM no longer believes this given his sycophantic support of Raynor.

[The Bloop]

Re: OH Angie Baby

what makes you think a return is not due? a taxpayer can owe no tax but still have to file a return. Even when no tax is due the penalty regime is automatic penalties of up to £1600 - see here, specifically the para about late filing penalties.

I might be a sole trader with no profits, or have interest income with no tax deducted at source (but still below the personal threshold), or dividend income, or be a high earner that has a P11 and benefits in kind already collected via my PAYE tax code.

It does not follow that just because you have to file a return that you have tax to pay. I appreciate not everyone can get head around this, but I do believe even the ape creatures of Sumatra have mastered this point.

Irrespective of what the final figure on a tax return shows, what do you think should happen if a tax return isnt filed on time?

[ninian opinian]

Re: OH Angie Baby

Thats reasonable excuse for circumstances outside of your control.

I'm not talking about that, im talking about not filing a return and receiving penalties of up to £1600 for each tax year.

Well file your return on time then you won’t get a penalty simples. If you don’t and you have a reasonable excuse then the penalty/penalties will be cancelled.

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Re: OH Angie Baby

Irrespective of what the final figure on a tax return shows, what do you think should happen if a tax return isnt filed on time?

given HMRC never respond to correspondence in the statutory time limit of 28 days they have a cheek expecting anyone filing anything on time.

However, any penalty should be limited to the tax that is due i.e. no penalty can be more than the tax...it used to be that way but as I said the penalty regime is becoming more brutal. Therefore if you owe no tax you don't have to pay a penalty.

not a perfect system but much better than the system we have nowadays

[ninian opinian]

Re: OH Angie Baby

pretty much yes.

I remember the poster DTM, when the Tories were in power, made a post saying it is incumbent on all of us to hold the government of the day to account. apparently DTM no longer believes this given his sycophantic support of Raynor.

Ange made an error and it was proved so. No penalty, tax paid, move on.

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Re: OH Angie Baby

Well file your return on time then you won’t get a penalty simples. If you don’t and you have a reasonable excuse then the penalty/penalties will be cancelled.

Why should someone who owes no tax need to tell HMRC they owe no tax?

As for filing tax returns on time....you're very naive if you think the world is as simple as you make out.

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Re: OH Angie Baby

Ange made an error and it was proved so. No penalty, tax paid, move on.

you once argued when the Tories were in power that it was incumbent on us all to hold the government to account. Why the volte face now Labour are in Government?

Notwithstanding that point, Raynor would have received a penalty, as is always the case, just that it was suspended. Sch24 FA2007, sch41 FA2008, sch55 FA2009 is the law in case you wanted to check.

[The Bloop]

Re: OH Angie Baby

given HMRC never respond to correspondence in the statutory time limit of 28 days they have a cheek expecting anyone filing anything on time.

However, any penalty should be limited to the tax that is due i.e. no penalty can be more than the tax...it used to be that way but as I said the penalty regime is becoming more brutal. Therefore if you owe no tax you don't have to pay a penalty.

not a perfect system but much better than the system we have nowadays

The current penalty regime for Sch 41 has been in place since 2010 so not sure what you mean by becoming more brutal.
If as you're suggesting no penalty should be more than the tax owed how does that effect a failure to file. File on time and dont get a penalty.
Behavioural penalties can and should (in my opinion) be more than the tax owed. Penalties of over 100% of the tax owed can be issued if information has been deliberately concealed from HMRC. A deliberate but not concealed penalty can be up to 100%, so what youre suggesting doesn't penalise those who have concealed information from HMRC.
Dont think its a cheeky either to submit a tax return on time when, if you're self removed, you have to do it just once a year.

[Heathblue]

Re: OH Angie Baby

[QUOTE=Feedback;5650280]pretty much yes
/QUOTE]

So the Ninian Opinion is of the opinion that apologies are required even though Ange only settled business because she got caught. I was contemplating doing a Cyril and just be in denial for about 8 years but no need now 🤣 and categorically say apology will not be forthcoming.

[Feedback]

Re: OH Angie Baby

The current penalty regime for Sch 41 has been in place since 2010 so not sure what you mean by becoming more brutal.
If as you're suggesting no penalty should be more than the tax owed how does that effect a failure to file. File on time and dont get a penalty.
Behavioural penalties can and should (in my opinion) be more than the tax owed. Penalties of over 100% of the tax owed can be issued if information has been deliberately concealed from HMRC. A deliberate but not concealed penalty can be up to 100%, so what youre suggesting doesn't penalise those who have concealed information from HMRC.
Dont think its a cheeky either to submit a tax return on time when, if you're self removed, you have to do it just once a year.

you're conflating two parts of the penalty regime which are very different. The fixed penalty regime is for non-filing of returns by the due date. The regime you have referenced, where HMRC use such language as careless, concealed, deliberate is separate and is used following an enquiry into a return already filed.

It is the fixed penalty regime that I have an issue with. For want of repeating myself a taxpayer may have to file a return even though they owe no tax, and end up being penalised up to £1600 per tax year if they do not. This penalty is a late filing penalty and nothing to do with schedule 41. Someone leaving the workplace having paid tax via PAYE all their lives may unwittingly have to file a return if they receive a lump sum gratuity, and if the return is not filed after 12 months, they have fixed penalties of £1600. This would need to be paid and would be taking funds from a pensioner who has no further earning potential to cover such a fine.

And you think this is acceptable. Just how heartless are you?

[Feedback]

Re: OH Angie Baby

So the Ninian Opinion is of the opinion that apologies are required even though Ange only settled business because she got caught. I was contemplating doing a Cyril and just be in denial for about 8 years but no need now �� and categorically say apology will not be forthcoming.

Crazy isn't it. Raynor got caught, paid the tax only when it was pointed out to her that she had not paid the correct amount.

you can only imagine the descent into apoplexy if this was a Tory or Reform politician.