Overtime and tax

[Feedback]

It seems as if Reform are going to cause confusion amongst the syndicalists with their latest populist policy of removing income tax on those earning overtime payments (working more than 40 hours per week and less than £75k per annum). This is very clearly a good policy for almost all workers who are paid overtime and its going to be interesting to see how trade unions are going to argue against it (pavlov's dogs and all that).

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Overtime and tax

It seems as if Reform are going to cause confusion amongst the syndicalists with their latest populist policy of removing income tax on those earning overtime payments (working more than 40 hours per week and less than £75k per annum). This is very clearly a good policy for almost all workers who are paid overtime and its going to be interesting to see how trade unions are going to argue against it (pavlov's dogs and all that).

I am not a union but it's pretty easy to argue against it as a policy - wellbeing. I think the scientific evidence against working longer hours is pretty established and I don't think we should be striving for a society that incentivises burnout/mental health, increased risk of physical health problems, secondary health problems (shit lifestyle choices due to lack of time) - the list is probably endless. It's not even about a 'nanny state' preventing people from working as much as they want, we have a health system that will have to absorb the associated problems.

That said, you could definitely argue that people might work LESS overtime than they do currently if they earn more from it, I don't think that will be the impact in a lot of cases though. Government is essentially about pulling levers to incentivise behaviour and this might not be a good one to pull.

It would also introduce an additional lever, 'short on treasury cash? Just raise the overtime tax free hours threshold to 45..', we might end up in a doom loop where people are working more and more to keep up with the policy, exacerbating the above.

[Feedback]

Re: Overtime and tax

I am not a union but it's pretty easy to argue against it as a policy - wellbeing. I think the scientific evidence against working longer hours is pretty established and I don't think we should be striving for a society that incentivises burnout/mental health, increased risk of physical health problems, secondary health problems (shit lifestyle choices due to lack of time) - the list is probably endless. It's not even about a 'nanny state' preventing people from working as much as they want, we have a health system that will have to absorb the associated problems.

That said, you could definitely argue that people might work LESS overtime than they do currently if they earn more from it, I don't think that will be the impact in a lot of cases though. Government is essentially about pulling levers to incentivise behaviour and this might not be a good one to pull.

It would also introduce an additional lever, 'short on treasury cash? Just raise the overtime tax free hours threshold to 45..', we might end up in a doom loop where people are working more and more to keep up with the policy, exacerbating the above.

We are going to have to agree to disagree here, because whilst I accept there is the law of unintended consequences with any new policy, overtime has always been a fact of life and its not about burnout, its about saying once you have worked so many hours, thereafter its tax free as you've done your bit for society.

Generally I think its a good policy as it rewards hard work whilst also ensuring that workers are still contributing a fair amount.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Overtime and tax

We are going to have to agree to disagree here, because whilst I accept there is the law of unintended consequences with any new policy, overtime has always been a fact of life and its not about burnout, its about saying once you have worked so many hours, thereafter its tax free as you've done your bit for society.

Generally I think its a good policy as it rewards hard work whilst also ensuring that workers are still contributing a fair amount.

That feels a bit like you are sticking your head in the sand and ignoring what I am saying about actual medical evidence because you like the vibe of the policy. Its not just about mental health burnout, it impacts physical health as well.

Kids being sent up chimneys was a 'fact of life' until enough people realised it wasn't a great idea.

I worry about the direction here during a cost of living crisis. We should be striving for a society where people can afford to implement a balanced lifestyle that makes them happy/healthy, rather than mitigating cost of living pressures by incentivising people to work so many hours it harms their long term health.

We should also be making lower-earning full-time working people's lives easier without a requirement that they slog beyond an acceptable full-time working week.

[Feedback]

Re: Overtime and tax

That feels a bit like you are sticking your head in the sand and ignoring what I am saying about actual medical evidence because you like the vibe of the policy. Its not just about mental health burnout, it impacts physical health as well.

Kids being sent up chimneys was a 'fact of life' until enough people realised it wasn't a great idea.

I worry about the direction here during a cost of living crisis. We should be striving for a society where people can afford to implement a balanced lifestyle that makes them happy/healthy, rather than mitigating cost of living pressures by incentivising people to work so many hours it harms their long term health.

We should also be making lower-earning full-time working people's lives easier without a requirement that they slog beyond an acceptable full-time working week.

I dont disagree that we should aim for fewer hours all round. But where some people do chip in (and there's many reasons why and not just to make ends meet), i think its a good policy

[ninian opinian]

Re: Overtime and tax

Alternative view.

While it makes for a good headline, this is a terrible policy for several reasons.

1. It would create a 'cliff edge' at £75,000, which means many people going from earning £75k to £76k would get hit by a tax bill that's bigger than their raise. This will hugely deter people from earning more.

2. It would be exceptionally easy to game to facilitate tax avoidance. Nothing would stop unscrupulous employers and and employees agreeing that the regular pay is very low, but an hour of overtime is paid (say) 100x ordinary wages. All of a sudden, the whole wage is tax-free.

3. It would be unfair between professions where hours are contracted and those it's not. The professional services sector, for example, rarely pays overtime. This would incentivise those professions to move to clock-punching: forcing professions to change their culture to suit government.

4. By targeting hours, it gives a tax break to work that takes longer. But we should be incentivising higher wages through higher productivity, not lower wages on longer hours.

5. Self-employed people and people who work multiple jobs wouldn't benefit from this. For absolutely no reason whatsoever.

Just cut taxes generally. Don't dream up schemes that make our tax system even more complicated and even more distortionary just to get a quick headline.

[Tuerto]

Re: Overtime and tax

That feels a bit like you are sticking your head in the sand and ignoring what I am saying about actual medical evidence because you like the vibe of the policy. Its not just about mental health burnout, it impacts physical health as well.

Kids being sent up chimneys was a 'fact of life' until enough people realised it wasn't a great idea.

I worry about the direction here during a cost of living crisis. We should be striving for a society where people can afford to implement a balanced lifestyle that makes them happy/healthy, rather than mitigating cost of living pressures by incentivising people to work so many hours it harms their long term health.

We should also be making lower-earning full-time working people's lives easier without a requirement that they slog beyond an acceptable full-time working week.

I agree with this simply down to personal circumstances. I've done all of that, chased money to the detriment of my own health and not seeing my kids enough or my wife, and when i did i was wasted, tired and not the best at being a Dad. I had a particularly physical job as well which has caused me problems with my body. Add to that, eating shit on the move, stress, bumping the kids off to grandparents because money was more important (it wasn't) I know that everyone's circumstances are different and working more may suit some people. Thing is, you get caught in a bubble of self importance and grumpiness, the extra cash isn't life changing, and you pay for it years down the line. There are certain things that none of us can get back.

[Heathblue]

Re: Overtime and tax

I agree with this simply down to personal circumstances. I've done all of that, chased money to the detriment of my own health and not seeing my kids enough or my wife, and when i did i was wasted, tired and not the best at being a Dad. I had a particularly physical job as well which has caused me problems with my body. Add to that, eating shit on the move, stress, bumping the kids off to grandparents because money was more important (it wasn't) I know that everyone's circumstances are different and working more may suit some people. Thing is, you get caught in a bubble of self importance and grumpiness, the extra cash isn't life changing, and you pay for it years down the line. There are certain things that none of us can get back.

100 % 👍

[ninian opinian]

Re: Overtime and tax

Another take.

This is the chef's kiss of Reform policy ideas.

The perfect example of public appeal vs retarded policy. Which is really what Reform is all about.

There are so many ways this would will be abused or backfire so I will list them all.

1. I said last night, company directors/owners will suddenly be earning 60 hours weeks every week (but not really).

2. Employee collusion - Business convert salaried roles to lower rate hourly pay, but pays fake "overtime". The employee gets more take home pay but the employer's payroll costs reduce.

3. Diversion - Many jobs don't pay overtime. Teachers for example. If they did, we'd be bankrupt. Why go into teaching on £35k a year when you could earn that on less hours with overtime elsewhere?

Efficiently run company don't have overtime opportunities at all, making them less attractive than those that do.

4. Unfair advantage - Let's say your a small landscaping company employing 5 guys by gaming the system above. You have an unfair advantage over the bigger company playing by the rules. Jobs will be lost as smaller, less scrupulous companies gain advantage over those that play by the rules.

5. It shrinks the job market - Offering overtime becomes a recruitment advantage. In which case employing 5 people to do a job with overtime is better than employing 6 with none.

6. It can shrink productivity - It's now in your interest to stretch your workload over more hours or game the system. Which means more hours worked for the same production.

7. If you think the answer is that there will be increased compliance enforcement and auditing from an already overwhelmed HMRC when Reform want to cut the civil service I'm afraid you're mistaken.

[Feedback]

Re: Overtime and tax

Another take.

This is the chef's kiss of Reform policy ideas.

The perfect example of public appeal vs retarded policy. Which is really what Reform is all about.

There are so many ways this would will be abused or backfire so I will list them all.

1. I said last night, company directors/owners will suddenly be earning 60 hours weeks every week (but not really).

2. Employee collusion - Business convert salaried roles to lower rate hourly pay, but pays fake "overtime". The employee gets more take home pay but the employer's payroll costs reduce.

3. Diversion - Many jobs don't pay overtime. Teachers for example. If they did, we'd be bankrupt. Why go into teaching on £35k a year when you could earn that on less hours with overtime elsewhere?

Efficiently run company don't have overtime opportunities at all, making them less attractive than those that do.

4. Unfair advantage - Let's say your a small landscaping company employing 5 guys by gaming the system above. You have an unfair advantage over the bigger company playing by the rules. Jobs will be lost as smaller, less scrupulous companies gain advantage over those that play by the rules.

5. It shrinks the job market - Offering overtime becomes a recruitment advantage. In which case employing 5 people to do a job with overtime is better than employing 6 with none.

6. It can shrink productivity - It's now in your interest to stretch your workload over more hours or game the system. Which means more hours worked for the same production.

7. If you think the answer is that there will be increased compliance enforcement and auditing from an already overwhelmed HMRC when Reform want to cut the civil service I'm afraid you're mistaken.

The above in bold is typical of the arrogance of the traditional parties and why the likes of Reform have been allowed to get the votes they have. Is this a populist policy? yes of course. But when your typical man on the street is working overtime, he is going to be more than happy knowing that more of what he earns stays in his pocket. If you think that the vast majority care for what you have written then you're not learning anything from what has been going on these past few years. Ultimately, when you're working hard and struggling to make ends meet, you start to focus on you and your family rather than wider society.

The responses of the left in this thread are typical and can partly explain why we we find ourselves in the position we are in. Full of criticism of other parties policies yet offer nothing as an alternative. How do Labour or any other party on the left (or even the Tories on the right) counter the policy that will put more money in the pockets of those that earn it? Its populism, and it will be a vote winner.

[ninian opinian]

Re: Overtime and tax

Well I’ll take an experts view on the proposal and not Feedys.

https://x.com/danneidle/status/2058837302214787391?s=46&t=5XvNdsdmLTsVTx09ZSEfIA

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Overtime and tax

Well IÂ’ll take an experts view on the proposal and not Feedys.

https://x.com/danneidle/status/20588...LTsVTx09ZSEfIA

Absolutely leathered

Reform are full of crap , another scheme that gets the facebook gang to think they are on their side when in reality its a complete con

Are reform not suppossed to be bringing something new to the table ?

Bunch of fake rolex tossers

[Feedback]

Re: Overtime and tax

Well I’ll take an experts view on the proposal and not Feedys.

https://x.com/danneidle/status/20588...LTsVTx09ZSEfIA

Once you ignore whats written. Classic DTM, blindly following party rhetoric. Its also nonsensical to regurgitate whats written in the X echo chamber.

The point I'm making, which you cant seem to comprehend, is that populist policies can win elections. Yet you seem quite happy to ignore this. Its a concern for me, because overtime working voter will see such a policy as being an immediate benefit when every other party is offering nothing of the sort. Promising bread and circuses today will get Reform into government, and it'll be foolish to ignore such warnings.

[Feedback]

Re: Overtime and tax

Absolutely leathered

Reform are full of crap , another scheme that gets the facebook gang to think they are on their side when in reality its a complete con

Are reform not suppossed to be bringing something new to the table ?

Bunch of fake rolex tossers

You're someone else who cannot comprehend what is happening. Do you think the average man on the street isnt going to see this policy and think it will benefit them in a much more positive way than any other party is promising.

We've seen in the USA how populist and rhetoric can win elections, and its happening here.