Overtime and tax

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Overtime and tax

You're someone else who cannot comprehend what is happening. Do you think the average man on the street isnt going to see this policy and think it will benefit them in a much more positive way than any other party is promising.

We've seen in the USA how populist and rhetoric can win elections, and its happening here.

I think people are a bit confused, a few posts up you said it was a 'good policy' and that it 'rewards hard work' which is different to thinking it's just a vote winner. You can think both or either or neither but it isn't clear now.

I don't think anyone has disputed that some people might think it helps them, but they have made it pretty clear that they think it's bad/unworkable.

[Feedback]

Re: Overtime and tax

It does surprise me how many people cannot comprehend two things can be true simultaneously. It is possible to think a policy is ok, rewards hard work, whilst also being populist.

DTM also argues against the policy but he is really arguing against something else which is related - the concept of overtime and not the particular policy proposal which is not to tax overtime. But we know that Sludge, DTM et al will always respond in the same way. Reform/The Tories/The right could state that the working week will now be 4 days not 5 and that everyone gets a puppy, and they'd find reasons to argue against it. Similarly, if Labour/Plaid/The Greens/The Left said they're bringing back Prima Noctis and cancelling Christmas, the same cohort would respond with excellent gambit by the policy makers.

As for X, I agree, its an echo chamber. Feeling suitably chastised I'll try and refrain from using it in future.

[Feedback]

Re: Overtime and tax

Alternative view.

While it makes for a good headline, this is a terrible policy for several reasons.

1. It would create a 'cliff edge' at £75,000, which means many people going from earning £75k to £76k would get hit by a tax bill that's bigger than their raise. This will hugely deter people from earning more.

wouldn't the pay above £75k be taxed but not the pay up to it?

2. It would be exceptionally easy to game to facilitate tax avoidance. Nothing would stop unscrupulous employers and and employees agreeing that the regular pay is very low, but an hour of overtime is paid (say) 100x ordinary wages. All of a sudden, the whole wage is tax-free.

nonsense. not even worth a response. We have minimum wage laws which according to you means overtime is paid at £1k an hour or more.

3. It would be unfair between professions where hours are contracted and those it's not. The professional services sector, for example, rarely pays overtime. This would incentivise those professions to move to clock-punching: forcing professions to change their culture to suit government.

unlikely. Generally professions have been salaried and its expected to do the hours required to get the job done. I've never seen an accountant, lawyer, and so on argue for overtime and I doubt such a policy would make people start now

4. By targeting hours, it gives a tax break to work that takes longer. But we should be incentivising higher wages through higher productivity, not lower wages on longer hours.

I don't disagree with the latter part, but there is nothing to say that existing targets would be lowered by implementing such a policy.

5. Self-employed people and people who work multiple jobs wouldn't benefit from this. For absolutely no reason whatsoever.

They don't benefit from overtime now. we've never had policies that impact everyone the same, so this is non sequitur

Just cut taxes generally. Don't dream up schemes that make our tax system even more complicated and even more distortionary just to get a quick headline.

I don't disagree. But you've missed the point that populist policies are designed to get people to vote rather than to get them think

[Feedback]

Re: Overtime and tax

1. I said last night, company directors/owners will suddenly be earning 60 hours weeks every week (but not really).

Not a chance. you really don't knowe the tax system if you think earning tax free income above 40 hours a week will be more tax beneficial. What about employers NICS, employee NICs, what about the tax on the first 40 hours?

2. Employee collusion - Business convert salaried roles to lower rate hourly pay, but pays fake "overtime". The employee gets more take home pay but the employer's payroll costs reduce.

if the employee is still earning the same amount, why is the employer better off? As an aside, are you suggesting that employers and employees have harmonious relations and therefore we don't need unions?

3. Diversion - Many jobs don't pay overtime. Teachers for example. If they did, we'd be bankrupt. Why go into teaching on £35k a year when you could earn that on less hours with overtime elsewhere?

This has always been the case and making overtime tax free will not change that.

Efficiently run company don't have overtime opportunities at all, making them less attractive than those that do.

this is the most nonsensical thing at all. A factory may have an order that comes in that requires fulfilment involving round the clock production, leading to the need for overtime. There is nothing which says the company is inefficient for needing overtime to fulfil such an order.

4. Unfair advantage - Let's say your a small landscaping company employing 5 guys by gaming the system above. You have an unfair advantage over the bigger company playing by the rules. Jobs will be lost as smaller, less scrupulous companies gain advantage over those that play by the rules.

so now you're arguing that small owner managed firms are a problem and big corporate and globals play by the rules.

5. It shrinks the job market - Offering overtime becomes a recruitment advantage. In which case employing 5 people to do a job with overtime is better than employing 6 with none.

overtime has always existed, I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make

6. It can shrink productivity - It's now in your interest to stretch your workload over more hours or game the system. Which means more hours worked for the same production.

why would targets be reduced as a result of this policy? If your employee expected you to make 100 widgets in a 40 hour week before, they're not going to reduce that target because of this policy.

If we get rid of overtime, what is your proposal if there is a major accident that requires doctors, nurses, orderlies etc to stay in work after their allotted time? What happens when the police need to catch a serial killer and this require a temporary increase in manpower? We have always had overtime, for a myriad of reasons, and plenty of people jump at the chance of taking overtime as it augments their pay.



7. If you think the answer is that there will be increased compliance enforcement and auditing from an already overwhelmed HMRC when Reform want to cut the civil service I'm afraid you're mistaken.[/QUOTE]

[ninian opinian]

Re: Overtime and tax

Once you ignore whats written. Classic DTM, blindly following party rhetoric. Its also nonsensical to regurgitate whats written in the X echo chamber.

The point I'm making, which you cant seem to comprehend, is that populist policies can win elections. Yet you seem quite happy to ignore this. It’s a concern for me, because overtime working voter will see such a policy as being an immediate benefit when every other party is offering nothing of the sort. Promising bread and circuses today will get Reform into government, and it'll be foolish to ignore such warnings.

Stop talking nonsense. I’m not on an X echo chamber I’m pointing out what experts have said. You are not an expert so I’ll stick with the experts opinions on this topic. Thank you.

[Feedback]

Re: Overtime and tax

Stop talking nonsense. I’m not on an X echo chamber I’m pointing out what experts have said. You are not an expert so I’ll stick with the experts opinions on this topic. Thank you.

So you agree there's more to Raynors tax case than we know already.

Good to see you finally admit it.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Overtime and tax

Meanwhile Restore , Rupert Lowes lovechild is standing in makerfield and taking around 7 percent of the vote from Reform

Right wing idiots falling out with each other

Come on Rupert you absolute tosser !

[ninian opinian]

Re: Overtime and tax

So you agree there's more to Raynors tax case than we know already.

Good to see you finally admit it.

Will you ever cease with your whatsboutery? It’s bloody boooooring.

[ninian opinian]

Re: Overtime and tax

Will you ever cease with your whatsboutery? It’s bloody boooooring.

Oh and you forgot to mention that Deform costed tax-free overtime at £5bn. The real figure looks closer to £14bn. A £9bn hole in one announcement. Clowns 🤡

[The Bloop]

Re: Overtime and tax

Oh and you forgot to mention that Deform costed tax-free overtime at £5bn. The real figure looks closer to £14bn. A £9bn hole in one announcement. Clowns 🤡

That'll just mean more 'efficiencies' across the civil service which will leave no-one to work their asylum returns.

[William Treseder]

Re: Overtime and tax

Absolutely leathered

Reform are full of crap , another scheme that gets the facebook gang to think they are on their side when in reality its a complete con

Are reform not suppossed to be bringing something new to the table ?

Bunch of fake rolex tossers

Why you getting involved in this debate? You’ve no chance of ever working overtime after 40 hrs. You don’t even work for 1 hr a week!

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Overtime and tax

Why you getting involved in this debate? You’ve no chance of ever working overtime after 40 hrs. You don’t even work for 1 hr a week!

I have explained to you previously my extensive CV

I am not going to do it again suffice to say it was my input that probably stopped disadvantaged kids nicking your car

You are going to get a heart attack talking all that nonsense

Now behave yourself you frazzled old cnnt

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Overtime and tax

Why you getting involved in this debate? You’ve no chance of ever working overtime after 40 hrs. You don’t even work for 1 hr a week!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_Card_F#/media/File:Testcard_F.jpg

Fella on the right

Thats you that is

[Feedback]

Re: Overtime and tax

Will you ever cease with your whatsboutery? It’s bloody boooooring.

If its boring why do you respond?

and its nothing like whataboutery, which is your stock answer when you have nothing to add.

[Feedback]

Re: Overtime and tax

Oh and you forgot to mention that Deform costed tax-free overtime at £5bn. The real figure looks
closer to £14bn. A £9bn hole in one announcement. Clowns 🤡

Its Reform.

do you have any analysis to support your claim the real figure is closer to £14bn? Or are you just regurgitating what you have read without giving it a thought of your own?