The Budget

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Re: The Budget

When I read your final paragraph in bold, I nearly fell off my chair laughing!! Political parties are one as bad as the other for telling fibs. Look at the nonsense between Salmond and Sturgeon in Scotland at the moment.

Secondly it was an online survey. These are notoriously inaccurate. Have you ever seen them on other sites such as the Express?

They used to show some ridiculously high votes in favour of Brexit!

I know you are a dyed in the wool tory but the conservatives are the biggest bunch of liars of them all

Boris is the prime example then it carries on from there

Hancock

Patel

Its in their DNA

[Elwood Blues]

Re: The Budget

I know you are a dyed in the wool tory but the conservatives are the biggest bunch of liars of them all

Boris is the prime example then it carries on from there

Hancock

Patel

Its in their DNA

Oh gawd how many more times

I am not a dyed in the wool tory.


I have voted Lib DEm and Liberal in the past

Had John Smith not died I could well have voted for Him..


I am more of the Ken Clark school of Tory but not with his party loyalty. If a decent Labour leader came along I would listen to him.


Where is that man????? Not Starmer in my view


However the Government is wrong on Nurses pay ( But not 12 1/2 %!!!!!!) wrong if it drops the extra £20 on working Tax Credit and was wrong on Free school meals.

Much of the rest of the budget I am OK with ( haven't seen all the small print yet though)

[the other bob wilson]

Re: The Budget

Oh gawd how many more times

I am not a dyed in the wool tory.


I have voted Lib DEm and Liberal in the past

Had John Smith not died I could well have voted for Him..


I am more of the Ken Clark school of Tory but not with his party loyalty. If a decent Labour leader came along I would listen to him.


Where is that man????? Not Starmer in my view


However the Government is wrong on Nurses pay ( But not 12 1/2 %!!!!!!) wrong if it drops the extra £20 on working Tax Credit and was wrong on Free school meals.

Much of the rest of the budget I am OK with ( haven't seen all the small print yet though)

So would you vote Tory if there was an election today?

[Elwood Blues]

Re: The Budget

So would you vote Tory if there was an election today?

I don't honestly know, probably yes but I would have to think about it as I always do before elections

That or abstain

I have no faith in any of the main parties.

As pointed out above I have reservations with some of the Conservative policies (not just the ones I mentioned in my previous post) although that has always been the case.

But the Liberal Democrats are busted flush at the moment. I like Ed Davey, but to me he is not much of a leader, though to be fair he hasn't got much to lead at the moment.

I don't go a bundle on Boris or Sir Keir. I don't despise the as I did Jeremy Corbyn but I don't really trust either of them.

There just don't seem to be the stand out politicians on any side at the moment.

Can you name any Bob?

Or give me a good reason why I should vote for any of them?

[the other bob wilson]

Re: The Budget

I don't honestly know, probably yes but I would have to think about it as I always do before elections

That or abstain

I have no faith in any of the main parties.

As pointed out above I have reservations with some of the Conservative policies (not just the ones I mentioned in my previous post) although that has always been the case.

But the Liberal Democrats are busted flush at the moment. I like Ed Davey, but to me he is not much of a leader, though to be fair he hasn't got much to lead at the moment.

I don't go a bundle on Boris or Sir Keir. I don't despise the as I did Jeremy Corbyn but I don't really trust either of them.

There just don't seem to be the stand out politicians on any side at the moment.

Can you name any Bob?

Or give me a good reason why I should vote for any of them?

Thanks for answering honestly. I'm at a loss mind as to why you still appear to rate Johnson above others. As for politicians I admire, there certainly aren't any in Cabinet positions I can think of and I don't see any stand out figures in the Shadow Cabinet either, but I do have some time for Starmer because I feel that he at least has a degree of competence to him. Despite her current problems, I would definitely vote for Sturgeon's party if I lived in Scotland and I think Adam Price comes over pretty well - in fact, I'd say I'm closer to favouring full Welsh independence than I've ever been, but still feel that would be a bit of a wasted vote because it's never going to happen in my lifetime.

If I was ever going to vote Conservative, I think it probably would have been in the days of the Coalition Government, but I never came close to it then and I certainly wouldn't now - I mentioned competence before, but this is the most incompetent Government I've experienced and any one who votes for them is doing so purely because of the sort of party loyalty charge that non Labour voters always direct towards south Wales valley voters.

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Re: The Budget

starmer is no leader mind you nor is Boris and the idiots voted him in

I think the Labour Party is a busted flush

After losing so many seats to Mrs krankie in Scotland its power base has gone

I think those of us that don't vote tory and in my case never will need a left of centre alternative to unite

Welsh independence is crazy , the figures don't add up , most of the population is based along the M4 Corridor in the south and the North East and coastal belt in the North

And thats it

No way can you run a country on that

We have more in common with Bristol than we do with sheep farmers in Llandovery

Lisa Nandy leading a progressive democratic party with the best of the Labour Party, Liberals and independents would be a dream ticket

[lisvaneblue]

Re: The Budget

Fantastic pay deal for those that have put their lives on the line for us , quite literally , from the conservatives

1 percent pay rise for nurses and doctors

That clap Boris was doing was clearly one handed

What a bunch of tossers

1% sounds like bugger all, and for a newly qualified nurse on £25K it's just a fiver a week. For a consultant it's £20 a week or more. Trouble with NHS is that it does not have performance related pay.

You are right Sludge some in the NHS have put their lives on the line but others haven't. I know of senior doctors with little to do because their specialities have stopped clinics, operations etc. Do they deserve a pay rise or should more be given to those on the Covid front line?

And how about the 10-20% of patients who caught Covid whilst in hospital? Some people in the NHS are responsible for these cross infections as the cause is poor infection control. Do they deserve a pay rise?

In England, (and currently it's England that's offered the 1%,) 385,000 Covid patients been in hospital in the year since the pandemic started. Approx 57,000 caught it whilst in hospital for something else.

I know there have been peaks and troughs in numbers but averaging them out there have been roughly 32,000 people a month in hospital with Covid. NHS England has 1.2m staff. If they all looked after Covid patients that would be 38 staff just looking after one patient.

As we know it's not like that at all. So like you I feel the front line Covid facing NHS staff deserve a fair rise. As for the rest, they are much more fortunate than many to have a job in the current climate

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: The Budget

1% sounds like bugger all, and for a newly qualified nurse on £25K it's just a fiver a week. For a consultant it's £20 a week or more. Trouble with NHS is that it does not have performance related pay.

You are right Sludge some in the NHS have put their lives on the line but others haven't. I know of senior doctors with little to do because their specialities have stopped clinics, operations etc. Do they deserve a pay rise or should more be given to those on the Covid front line?

And how about the 10-20% of patients who caught Covid whilst in hospital? Some people in the NHS are responsible for these cross infections as the cause is poor infection control. Do they deserve a pay rise?

In England, (and currently it's England that's offered the 1%,) 385,000 Covid patients been in hospital in the year since the pandemic started. Approx 57,000 caught it whilst in hospital for something else.

I know there have been peaks and troughs in numbers but averaging them out there have been roughly 32,000 people a month in hospital with Covid. NHS England has 1.2m staff. If they all looked after Covid patients that would be 38 staff just looking after one patient.

As we know it's not like that at all. So like you I feel the front line Covid facing NHS staff deserve a fair rise. As for the rest, they are much more fortunate than many to have a job in the current climate

I am not going to argue with that

[Rjk]

Re: The Budget

starmer is no leader mind you nor is Boris and the idiots voted him in

I think the Labour Party is a busted flush

After losing so many seats to Mrs krankie in Scotland its power base has gone

I think those of us that don't vote tory and in my case never will need a left of centre alternative to unite

Welsh independence is crazy , the figures don't add up , most of the population is based along the M4 Corridor in the south and the North East and coastal belt in the North

And thats it

No way can you run a country on that

We have more in common with Bristol than we do with sheep farmers in Llandovery

Lisa Nandy leading a progressive democratic party with the best of the Labour Party, Liberals and independents would be a dream ticket

many of the economic arguments against Welsh independence would have equally applied to Ireland about 100 years ago.
when they became independent they were probably the poorest part of the UK, and it has taken them most of a century but since 2001 they have had a higher GDP per capita, and it is a gap that is only getting wider.

in the 1920s they basically had an entirely agrarian economy, that ONLY traded with the UK.
if they hadn't have left the UK there is NO WAY that they would now be as wealthy or the wealthiest part of the UK. they would probably be a poor part of the UK and as ignored as the remaining poor parts in terms of investment.

[Elwood Blues]

Re: The Budget

Thanks for answering honestly. I'm at a loss mind as to why you still appear to rate Johnson above others. As for politicians I admire, there certainly aren't any in Cabinet positions I can think of and I don't see any stand out figures in the Shadow Cabinet either, but I do have some time for Starmer because I feel that he at least has a degree of competence to him. Despite her current problems, I would definitely vote for Sturgeon's party if I lived in Scotland and I think Adam Price comes over pretty well - in fact, I'd say I'm closer to favouring full Welsh independence than I've ever been, but still feel that would be a bit of a wasted vote because it's never going to happen in my lifetime.

If I was ever going to vote Conservative, I think it probably would have been in the days of the Coalition Government, but I never came close to it then and I certainly wouldn't now - I mentioned competence before, but this is the most incompetent Government I've experienced and any one who votes for them is doing so purely because of the sort of party loyalty charge that non Labour voters always direct towards south Wales valley voters.

I don't think I said I rated Johnston above the others any where in my response.

I said I was still more likely to vote for the Tories if there was an election now, which is not the same thing. I suspect by the time I have to vote in a national election again there may well be a different leader. Either that or Boris will have to up his game as leader.

The Tories seem to finally be learning some of the lessons from the Pandemic. They are correctly being more cautious over lifting the lockdown ( there will always be disagreements as to whether they are going too quickly or too slowly) and thus far ( and keeping fingers crossed) the vaccine program is going well, better it seems than most other countries ( especially the EU!!!!)

There is of course a raft of things they will now need to get right. They have already talked about changing the NHS by unwinding some of Lansleys reforms but they need to bite the bullet on Social Care fairly soon (though neither will directly affect us here in Wales since they are devolved, although they may influence decisions here if they get it right.

Brexit has been "done"!! Well sort of but there are still; of course many loose ends, how well they have sorted them out should be apparent at the next election.


It is difficult to judge a political leaders competence until he has been tested in office. Opposition is a different matter. Sir Keir certainly is far more competent than Corbyn but that is not a very high bar in my view.


You mention Sturgeon. I would not have voted for her anyway because I would not vote for independence if I was there. I am not against independence per se but I think if either Scotland or Wales went for Independence now they would faced years of struggle, Indeed if either of the enquiries now ongoing find she has breached the ministerial code she should in my view resign.

Finally I disagree with some of your last sentence, particularly your point comparing anyone who currently votes conservative with the Labour voter who, in the expression used at the time, would have voted a donkey into certain South Wales valley seats as long as he or she wore a red rosette. Yes the Tory parties competence can be questioned over some of their pandemic response but I think most government in Europe and many round the word have struggled with the Pandemic and had similar problems (lack of PPE, insufficient testing wrong decisions on lock down etc) This doesn't make the mistakes OK, but dealing with this pandemic was horrendously difficult for most countries, and I think pretty all the governments I have known in my lifetime would have struggled. In addition to the various things they need to improve such as social care they also need to develop a robust Pandemic plan which takes account of all the lessons learnt. And of course there need to be a public enquiry.

[Feedback]

Re: The Budget

many of the economic arguments against Welsh independence would have equally applied to Ireland about 100 years ago.
when they became independent they were probably the poorest part of the UK, and it has taken them most of a century but since 2001 they have had a higher GDP per capita, and it is a gap that is only getting wider.

in the 1920s they basically had an entirely agrarian economy, that ONLY traded with the UK.
if they hadn't have left the UK there is NO WAY that they would now be as wealthy or the wealthiest part of the UK. they would probably be a poor part of the UK and as ignored as the remaining poor parts in terms of investment.

if you're going to quote Ireland and its GDP, then be honest about it and explain that a significant portion of it is a result of the double Irish, meaning whilst the economic activity of the likes of Facebook, Google etc is nominally part of the Irish GDP, its hardly taxed in Ireland and it doesn't transpose to wealth for Ireland.

If you strip out the GDP included as a result of the double Irish, then Ireland is nowhere near as prosperous as the UK.

A few points about Wales:

we have a fiscal deficit of £15bn per annum;

our GDP is about £70bn;

if we taxed at 40%, we'd need to generate £37.5bn more economic activity to increase our tax base by £15bn. That means we would need to increase the size of our economy by more than 50%;

In Wales, 1 in 4 work in the public sector. That's 375,000 workers. In the UK it is 1 in 5. To match the UK in terms of cost and efficiency, we would need to lose 75,000 public sector jobs;

We can't generate a 50% uplift in our economy from selling water and wind to England;

we are not going to replace 75,000 public sector workers with private sector employment;

Wales will be an economic basket case, 3rd world within a generation.

the economic numbers just do not stack up. Quoting Ireland is folly because its GDP is vastly inflated due to the likes of Facebook et al.

[jon1959]

Re: The Budget

Why do we need to replace public sector jobs with private sector jobs?

[the other bob wilson]

Re: The Budget

I don't think I said I rated Johnston above the others any where in my response.

I said I was still more likely to vote for the Tories if there was an election now, which is not the same thing. I suspect by the time I have to vote in a national election again there may well be a different leader. Either that or Boris will have to up his game as leader.

The Tories seem to finally be learning some of the lessons from the Pandemic. They are correctly being more cautious over lifting the lockdown ( there will always be disagreements as to whether they are going too quickly or too slowly) and thus far ( and keeping fingers crossed) the vaccine program is going well, better it seems than most other countries ( especially the EU!!!!)

There is of course a raft of things they will now need to get right. They have already talked about changing the NHS by unwinding some of Lansleys reforms but they need to bite the bullet on Social Care fairly soon (though neither will directly affect us here in Wales since they are devolved, although they may influence decisions here if they get it right.

Brexit has been "done"!! Well sort of but there are still; of course many loose ends, how well they have sorted them out should be apparent at the next election.


It is difficult to judge a political leaders competence until he has been tested in office. Opposition is a different matter. Sir Keir certainly is far more competent than Corbyn but that is not a very high bar in my view.


You mention Sturgeon. I would not have voted for her anyway because I would not vote for independence if I was there. I am not against independence per se but I think if either Scotland or Wales went for Independence now they would faced years of struggle, Indeed if either of the enquiries now ongoing find she has breached the ministerial code she should in my view resign.

Finally I disagree with some of your last sentence, particularly your point comparing anyone who currently votes conservative with the Labour voter who, in the expression used at the time, would have voted a donkey into certain South Wales valley seats as long as he or she wore a red rosette. Yes the Tory parties competence can be questioned over some of their pandemic response but I think most government in Europe and many round the word have struggled with the Pandemic and had similar problems (lack of PPE, insufficient testing wrong decisions on lock down etc) This doesn't make the mistakes OK, but dealing with this pandemic was horrendously difficult for most countries, and I think pretty all the governments I have known in my lifetime would have struggled. In addition to the various things they need to improve such as social care they also need to develop a robust Pandemic plan which takes account of all the lessons learnt. And of course there need to be a public enquiry.

You might not rate Johnson more than other party leaders perhaps, but it seems that you're still "probably" going to vote for him. Bearing that in mind, I see you're saying Nicola Sturgeon should resign if certain things happen on a matter that has now been ruled on yet. Contrast that to your attitude towards the party you consistently and will "probably" vote for again with its leader who will not tell voters how many children he has fathered, has been sacked from a national newspaper for lying, has used phrases which can be considered racist in articles he's written and has had a conversation with a convicted fraudster about having a News of the World reporter beaten up. This man, who sets himself up as a "man of the people" has, reportedly, been continuously bleating about how his £150k a year salary is not enough and so is looking to set up a charity to have the flat at 10 Downing Street renovated at a cost of £200k when the maximum allowed public grant is £30,000.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9339115/Boris-Johnson-refuses-say-paying-Carrie-Symonds-200-000-Downing-Street-flat-refurb.html

That man leads a Government which includes a Chancellor who promoted a "Eat Out to help out" scheme offering half price restaurant meals that came into force days after Chris Whitty had said “We have probably reached near the limits, or the limits, of what we can do in terms of opening up society,”. This was at a time when SAGE was saying that they had no confidence that R was still below one - see link posted by Surge in the Coronavirus thread for more on this.

Also in this Government is a Home Secretary who had to resign her previous Cabinet job over unauthorised meetings with the Israeli Government which breached the Ministerial Code and an Education Secretary, widely regarded as incompetent in his current job, who had to resign his job as Defence Secretary amid allegations of leaking confidential National Security information. Besides that, there's a Health Secretary who was judged to have "breached his legal obligation" by not publishing details within 30 days of contracts being signed - a man who awards very lucrative contrasts to the landlord of his local pub!

Despite all of this, it appears that you're inclined to give the Government the benefit of the doubt - as it would appear are very many who voted for them fifteen months despite a horrendous death toll from the pandemic in which the latest excuse for the Conservatives made by their apologists is that we're all too fat. To me, that displays exactly the sort of thinking that I mentioned earlier that people in the valleys are often accused of when it comes to casting their vote.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: The Budget

You might not rate Johnson more than other party leaders perhaps, but it seems that you're still "probably" going to vote for him. Bearing that in mind, I see you're saying Nicola Sturgeon should resign if certain things happen on a matter that has now been ruled on yet. Contrast that to your attitude towards the party you consistently and will "probably" vote for again with it's leader who will not tell voters how many children he has fathered, has been sacked from a national newspaper for lying, has used phrases which can be considered racist in articles he's written and has had a conversation with a convicted fraudster about having a News of the World reporter beaten up. This man, who sets himself up as a "man of the people" has, reportedly, been continuously bleating about how his £150k a year salary is not enough and so is looking to set up a charity to have the flat at 10 Downing Street renovated at a cost of £200k when the maximum allowed public grant is £30,000.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9339115/Boris-Johnson-refuses-say-paying-Carrie-Symonds-200-000-Downing-Street-flat-refurb.html

That man leads a Government which includes a Chancellor who promoted a "Eat Out to help out" scheme offering half price restaurant meals that came into force days after Chris Whitty had said “We have probably reached near the limits, or the limits, of what we can do in terms of opening up society,”. This was at a time when SAGE was saying that they had no confidence that R was still below one - see link posted by Surge in the Coronavirus thread for more on this.

Also in this Government is a Home Secretary who had to resign her previous Cabinet job over unauthorised meetings with the Israeli Government which breached the Ministerial Code and an Education Secretary, widely regarded as incompetent in his current job, who had to resign his job as Defence Secretary amid allegations of leaking confidential National Security information. Besides that, there's a Health Secretary who was judged to have "breached his legal obligation" by not publishing details within 30 days of contracts being signed.

Despite all of this, it appears that you're inclined to give the Government the benefit of the doubt - as it would appear are very many who voted for them fifteen months despite a horrendous death toll from the pandemic in which the latest excuse for the Conservatives made by their apologists is that we're all too fat. To me, that displays exactly the sort of thinking that I mentioned earlier that people in the valleys are often accused of when it comes to casting their vote.

This government is rotten to the core

The fact that people vote for them doesn't remove that fact

[Feedback]

Re: The Budget

Why do we need to replace public sector jobs with private sector jobs?

I'll assume you read my post but failed to take on board that in the UK 1 in every 5 workers is a public sector worker, but in Wales this is 1 in 4. So we have 75k more public sector jobs than the UK average. If we do not collect more in taxes to pay for them, then either we lose those jobs or they are replaced by the private sector.