6PM Curfew - for Men.?

[adz-a32]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

And here we have an example of how to shift the goalposts. You said “the single biggest demographic that are the victims of murder and children under 1”. Yet how come the ONS report said the part I quoted? And you mention normalisation - look at how many under 1s there would be compared to those who are 25-34. There are more 25-29 year olds compare to under 1s as of 2019. As someone said “your interpretation of data is lacking”.

But let’s not get distracted. Infanticide is an issue, yes, but the debate here is about sexual harassment, not murder. Your attitude is like those who claim “all lives matter” - it is avoiding the point and deflecting on the inequalities.

Okay I admit the first paragraph is a mare lol... shouldnt multitask but second paragraph still stands.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

It’s spot on, like with everything shit in this world if people are actively good it’ll make a difference even if it’s just a small difference individually.

What does that mean in practical terms though?

It won't make enough of a difference to stop attacks on women entirely so it feels like we are entering a never ending cycle of the normalisation of blaming good men for the actions of bad men, which is unhealthy.

[Feedback]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

Okay I admit the first paragraph is a mare lol... shouldnt multitask but second paragraph still stands.

is the debate really about sexual harassment or has it moved on to blaming all men for the actions of a very small minority. We all have wives and sisters, girlfriends and daughters (and unless you're from Swansea, they are usually different people), and we all know they need to be vigilant when out and about because there are sociopaths out there. No one is saying they are on every street corner but in the same breathe no one wants to be a statistic. Moving on from that none of us expect that psychopath to be our friends, brothers, fathers or sons. No one knows who these people are until after it happens because this type of rage and contempt is usually kept quite latent and hidden.

You're conflating two very different issues and I'd hazard a guess that stopping builders wolf whistling at women will have no affect whatsoever on individuals who decide they need to take a life.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

rapists are gonna rape, murderers are gonna murder. There's nothing we can do about that as our punishment of criminals doesn't stop the crime itself.

It's not as absolute as that though, is it? We have already seen in recent decades that changes in society can affect the behaviour of some people even if it is only be degree in some cases. I don't have any facts or statistics to back it up but I would imagine that violent punishment of children by parents has reduced since the sixties - and violence experienced as a child often leaves an imprint that itself may beget violence. In recent years I have assisted in an infants school (helping kids to read) and I have attended a college for evening classes - and just from the very prominent posters and notice boards in both it is obvious that children and young people are being taught to not be concerned about being different and to respect other children they come across who may be different in one way or another.
I think it's all healthy stuff compared to the environment that many of us were brought up in during the sixties where some of us were beaten at home, caned at school and very rarely had a female boss. Bullying was also rife and, in my immediate circle of contacts, very often the worst proponents came from violent homes and/or those who felt like outsiders or inferior in some respects.
It is becoming more unacceptable for males to be dominant in relationships and marriage, which also helps. (I have a friend who delivers courses on such subjects in the Solomon Islands where wife-beating is still very rife).
Yes, some murderers will still murder and some rapists will rape - but to think that the only answer is punishment after the event is not something I could agree with.

[surge]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

What does that mean in practical terms though?

It won't make enough of a difference to stop attacks on women entirely so it feels like we are entering a never ending cycle of the normalisation of blaming good men for the actions of bad men, which is unhealthy.

Does it? Makes a difference from blaming the victims then, eh?

To perhaps disagree with my point earlier, I don't think anyone is asking men to stop the murders or rapes, but earlier it was said men already challenge their friends who are acting like d*cks to which a number disagreed. How many have spoken to their sons about bad behaviour as a preventative measure compared to how many speak to their daughters about being careful? Many women have come up with ideas to make them feel more comfortable but perhaps what they ultimately want is to have to ask the question "is this it?" less frequently. The conversation has clearly widened out from original incident.

[ninian opinian]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

This guy gets it.

https://twitter.com/redsarah99/status/1370505900834832393?s=21

[surge]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

This guy gets it.

https://twitter.com/redsarah99/statu...834832393?s=21

In the Daniel Sloss video I referenced earlier he supposed that if every single woman goes to the police there aren't enough police or courts to deal with the problem. Our court system in England and Wales is already fecked (with current government blaming covid and some pointing out problems have existed over the decade before that) so reducing violence full stop (where ever it's directed) would also help women get protection from most serious offenders. More men being arrested for fighting men to protect women isn't going to help either.

[Croesy Blue]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

What does that mean in practical terms though?

It won't make enough of a difference to stop attacks on women entirely so it feels like we are entering a never ending cycle of the normalisation of blaming good men for the actions of bad men, which is unhealthy.

So if something doesn’t stop something entirely you shouldn’t bother?

[adz-a32]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

is the debate really about sexual harassment or has it moved on to blaming all men for the actions of a very small minority. We all have wives and sisters, girlfriends and daughters (and unless you're from Swansea, they are usually different people), and we all know they need to be vigilant when out and about because there are sociopaths out there. No one is saying they are on every street corner but in the same breathe no one wants to be a statistic. Moving on from that none of us expect that psychopath to be our friends, brothers, fathers or sons. No one knows who these people are until after it happens because this type of rage and contempt is usually kept quite latent and hidden.

You're conflating two very different issues and I'd hazard a guess that stopping builders wolf whistling at women will have no affect whatsoever on individuals who decide they need to take a life.

The post you responded to says that as men, we can help lessen the issue. It doesn’t blame us or all men.

I admit that as a man, I have privilege and I could do more to help make society better. So I am gonna do more and try to be the change I wanna see. This, like many issues (although these issues are not related), can be helped via individual actions.

You mention builders wolf whistling. That is intimidating and degrading women. That is harassment and creating an unequal society. The murder was an extreme incident but the debate, as I say again, is about sexual harassment in general.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

Does it? Makes a difference from blaming the victims then, eh?

Victim blaming goes on but not every suggestion centred around prevention is 'victim blaming', everybody needs to aware of potential dangers and take precautions appropriate to their own personal risk tolerance. That isn't to say that society at the same time isn't trying to deal with these issues in other ways and it also isn't to say that it isn't a shame that people have to alter their behaviour to mitigate potentially dangerous circumstances but that applies to men as much as it does women.

How many have spoken to their sons about bad behaviour as a preventative measure compared to how many speak to their daughters about being careful?

That is probably a fair point but as a parent (I am not one), I would assume you see the best in your kids and are more likely to expect your daughter to be a victim than your son to be a rapist. In my opinion mothers are probably more likely to put their sons up on a pedestal than dads. If I was an asshole when I was younger my mum would have gone far further to defend me or justify my behaviour than my dad, I don't think she is an outlier.

but earlier it was said men already challenge their friends who are acting like d*cks to which a number disagreed

When I was at uni, a couple of my housemates were in an interesting situation with a girl, she clearly didn't want one of them involved, someone else in the house overheard (thin walls!) and we collectively put a stop to it. I think you are right that this would be considered 'cockblocking' and 'against the male code' by a minority but **** that, there was no real discussion, we all knew what was right. I don't think that is atypical behaviour at all and I think it is doing a disservice to men to suggest that we need to learn how to stop our friends assaulting women.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

So if something doesn’t stop something entirely you shouldn’t bother?

I didn't say that, can you tell me what I am meant to be doing to stop policemen kidnapping and murdering women and I will give it a try.

Second part of my point is simple, this unhealthy discourse WILL embolden a counter culture and will in the end eventually be the downfall of any real attempt to address the issue, in essence the discussion/side-taking will become more important than the issue itself. We have all seen this happen many times before, for an example see 'white privilege', a clumsy phrase jumped upon by anybody wishing to block/limit real positive change in terms of equality.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

In the Daniel Sloss video I referenced earlier he supposed that if every single woman goes to the police there aren't enough police or courts to deal with the problem. Our court system in England and Wales is already fecked (with current government blaming covid and some pointing out problems have existed over the decade before that) so reducing violence full stop (where ever it's directed) would also help women get protection from most serious offenders. More men being arrested for fighting men to protect women isn't going to help either.

If you want to prevent crime you need to make sure people are likely to be caught and convicted, for these sorts of crimes the numbers don't look great. Our justice system is built around the idea that it is better for a guilty person to go free than it is for an innocent person to go to prison. Rape convictions are low because it's seemingly hard to prove (which makes sense really, unless you are a pretty shit rapist there are unlikely to be witnesses), if you want more convictions you probably have to accept that innocent people are a little bit more likely to go to prison.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

I didn't say that, can you tell me what I am meant to be doing to stop policemen kidnapping and murdering women and I will give it a try.

Second part of my point is simple, this unhealthy discourse WILL embolden a counter culture and will in the end eventually be the downfall of any real attempt to address the issue, in essence the discussion/side-taking will become more important than the issue itself. We have all seen this happen many times before, for an example see 'white privilege', a clumsy phrase jumped upon by anybody wishing to block/limit real positive change in terms of equality.

I am on twitter for a very specific purpose, certainly wouldn't choose to chat hot topics like this but I caught sight of a graphic which suggested that men were part of the problem if they touched a woman's back with their hand whilst navigating a busy bar. That is an example of this spilling over into the absolutely ridiculous and unfortunately that is the kind of nonsense that will get seized upon by those men who do overstep the mark and are looking to diminish the likelihood of actual positive change.

[surge]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

I didn't say that, can you tell me what I am meant to be doing to stop policemen kidnapping and murdering women and I will give it a try.

Second part of my point is simple, this unhealthy discourse WILL embolden a counter culture and will in the end eventually be the downfall of any real attempt to address the issue, in essence the discussion/side-taking will become more important than the issue itself. We have all seen this happen many times before, for an example see 'white privilege', a clumsy phrase jumped upon by anybody wishing to block/limit real positive change in terms of equality.

For me, I think this explains what you were thinking with your earlier post much better. There is a risk of this happening but I felt your earlier post was saying we were already there with the discourse that has happened since, which I don't believe is the case.

Despite what Feedback has tried to do, I don't think the conversation happening now is solely about the one incident representing one of the most extreme examples.

[surge]

Re: 6PM Curfew - for Men.?

I didn't say that, can you tell me what I am meant to be doing to stop policemen kidnapping and murdering women and I will give it a try.

Second part of my point is simple, this unhealthy discourse WILL embolden a counter culture and will in the end eventually be the downfall of any real attempt to address the issue, in essence the discussion/side-taking will become more important than the issue itself. We have all seen this happen many times before, for an example see 'white privilege', a clumsy phrase jumped upon by anybody wishing to block/limit real positive change in terms of equality.

Went down to Clapham Common with my Press ID - because that’s my job. The bandstand was surrounded on all sides by women - and a few men - fed up, exhausted, let down.

Without question: this gathering at Clapham Common is less Covid safe, more angry and much more radical in terms of the voices dominating it, than if the Met had reached an agreement with #ReclaimTheseStreets for a marshalled events. (Instead, it is led by @SistersUncut)

Lots of women early on did just as the Duchess of C did - come look at the flowers for a bit, make their point, move on. Then it got darker, then Sisters Uncut started leading speeches from the bandstand, then the police moved in. As you’ll have seen from plenty of footage by now

Personal view: speech from the bandstand sounded a lot like contempt of court & will be especially if republished. People are understandably very angry about the suspect’s history in the police. But I worry tonight may be used by his lawyers to question the fairness of any trial

I have also wondered a lot this week about how Sarah Everard’s family actually feel about all of this. They, and her personal friends, are grieving somewhere tonight.

I’m as angry as any other woman, and as determined as any other feminist campaigner to Do Something. But Sarah Everard, the real person, doesn’t actually belong to any of us, you know?

https://twitter.com/KateMaltby/statu...20967149281290

Might be what you're talking about. Especially as several on twitter are saying the suspect committed the crime which obviously hasn't been determined yet.