Historically big clubs

[Dembe]

Sheff Weds are at the wrong end of the table pulling in crowds of 25k plus.

They've done absolutely nothing for years. Big club?

How far back do we cut in their history?

Forest won the European cup, fantastic achievement but it was 45 years ago, are they still a big club now?

I'm not saying either of these aren't, but I think it would make an interesting discussion.

Who are the big clubs? and who's no longer worthy of their dusty title?

[bobh]

Re: Historically big clubs

Is a big club one that has won something or one that has a large fanbase?

When was the last time eg Leeds won anything? or Villa?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Historically big clubs

Is a big club one that has won something or one that has a large fanbase?

When was the last time eg Leeds won anything? or Villa?

Fanbase

Wednesday , Derby , Wolves , Pompey , Forest , Leeds , Newcastle , Sunderland , Middlesbrough, Villa , Stoke

Of course Liverpool , United , Spurs etc are big clubs but they havnt had years in the wilderness like some of the above

Everton fans were on the radio a few weeks back crying that if they went down it would be the end , they would never recover etc, it was pathetic

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Historically big clubs

Is a big club one that has won something or one that has a large fanbase?

When was the last time eg Leeds won anything? or Villa?

1993 Leeds won the league ?

It's in living memory

Most of the people who can remember when we won anything are dead

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Historically big clubs

Sheff Weds are at the wrong end of the table pulling in crowds of 25k plus.

They've done absolutely nothing for years. Big club?

How far back do we cut in their history?

Forest won the European cup, fantastic achievement but it was 45 years ago, are they still a big club now?

I'm not saying either of these aren't, but I think it would make an interesting discussion.

Who are the big clubs? and who's no longer worthy of their dusty title?

Blackpool , Preston , Bolton were big clubs

But not anymore

But Sunderland , Wolves and Wednesday were .......and still are ......if that makes sense ?

Brighton are doing well and it's great for football but Wednesday , Sunderland are huge clubs by comparison

[Keyser Soze]

Re: Historically big clubs

I think this is one of the best questions that has been asked on this forum in many years. Superb! I give my opinion with some degree of certainty, but not entirely. Let’s look at our own club before Sheff Weds, as it is closer to home and more salient.

First of all, I think “big club” is partly factual, and partly subjective. For example, many have argued, as do I, that Cardiff is a “sleeping giant”. Others say “It isn’t because we cannot get crowds of more than 25k when we are doing well”. TLG was a big exponent of this line of thinking, if memory serves me well.

Now to answer “Are we a big club?” requires a business analysis and historical analysis, which with many these days squeaking “TLDR” before someone’s second paragraph is beyond the scope of this forum, due to some possessing attention spans of a retarded nat.

But I think it would be fair to say that TLG’s civil servant approach of saying “Well the evidence of the last 20 years says not” fails to account for looking back further in history when Cardiff was regularly in the top two, and drawing 45k plus. He would rightfully point out that when we did get promoted we still couldn’t nudge Northwards of 27k. That said, all we could do is fill the capacity we had. It is possible that demand may have been 30-35k, but I cannot prove that. Evidence does not account for possibilities and alternative scenarios.

On that note, what if we had achieved Swansea’s sustained mid-table for 5 seasons? With good ticket prices for children, family-friendly policies, and a club that was well stewarded and engaged with fans, with a stadium capacity to handle demand? I would guess we could have 35-40k in there.

Is that a “big club”? Let’s try and define a list of categories:

1. Monster club (top 10-20%)
2. Big Club (top 30-40%)
3. Average Club (40-60% bracket)
4. Small club (bottom 30-40%)
5. A pygmy club (top 10-20%)

Now you have to define “big club”. So on fan base alone, given that “small clubs” have 2-3k of fans, and monster clubs like Spurs, Man Utd and Liverpool get 55-75 I would say this is the sort of thing you need to define a “big club”. The list is a starter, and by no means exhaustive, but a good opening gambit for debate, and my personal stab:

1. Commercial revenues in the top 30-40% of clubs in the English 4 professional divisions

2. Actual crowds in the top 30-40% of attendances (I would guess these days this is 30-45k perhaps, with top 20% being perhaps 45-65k?)

3. Potential crowds in the top 30-40% of attendances

4. A big catchment area, with little or mimimal competition, suggesting potential monopolistic possibilities for fan base

5.A strong brand

6. A history in recent or distant past that suggests possible large crowds

To me, league position is temporary and not a strong indicator as it is volatile. I would argue that Cardiff has elements of a big club (3,4 and elements of 6). If we agrre for simplicity on above definitions then maybe we are an “average club”, but with success in PL like Swansea we could be a “big club”, or have some elements of that.

Sheff Weds? With their crowds, and crowds when they were top flight, I think they could be called a big club. I think we would see similar crowds to them in the top flight if we both had similar success and priced our prices well for children.

But to answer your question well requires a good definition, rather than emotive answers or basing it on “crowds today”. Also, none of our opinions or views are testable by evidence until we sustained ourselves as a top 10 club. Only then can we be sure of what this club really is in the modern era.

[J R Hartley]

Re: Historically big clubs

Fanbase

Wednesday , Derby , Wolves , Pompey , Forest , Leeds , Newcastle , Sunderland , Middlesbrough, Villa , Stoke

Of course Liverpool , United , Spurs etc are big clubs but they havnt had years in the wilderness like some of the above

Everton fans were on the radio a few weeks back crying that if they went down it would be the end , they would never recover etc, it was pathetic

End of thread. You tried your best Dembe.

[J R Hartley]

Re: Historically big clubs

1993 Leeds won the league ?

It's in living memory

Most of the people who can remember when we won anything are dead

1992 actually. You dont know your football history.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Historically big clubs

End of thread. You tried your best Dembe.

Well he's asked a question and my view is its fan base

I am sure other people would think it's something else

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Historically big clubs

1992 actually. You dont know your football history.

A year out

I can forgive myself for that

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Historically big clubs

I think this is one of the best questions that has been asked on this forum in many years. Superb! I give my opinion with some degree of certainty, but not entirely. Let’s look at our own club before Sheff Weds, as it is closer to home and more salient.

First of all, I think “big club” is partly factual, and partly subjective. For example, many have argued, as do I, that Cardiff is a “sleeping giant”. Others say “It isn’t because we cannot get crowds of more than 25k when we are doing well”. TLG was a big exponent of this line of thinking, if memory serves me well.

Now to answer “Are we a big club?” requires a business analysis and historical analysis, which with many these days squeaking “TLDR” before someone’s second paragraph is beyond the scope of this forum, due to some possessing attention spans of a retarded nat.

But I think it would be fair to say that TLG’s civil servant approach of saying “Well the evidence of the last 20 years says not” fails to account for looking back further in history when Cardiff was regularly in the top two, and drawing 45k plus. He would rightfully point out that when we did get promoted we still couldn’t nudge Northwards of 27k. That said, all we could do is fill the capacity we had. It is possible that demand may have been 30-35k, but I cannot prove that. Evidence does not account for possibilities and alternative scenarios.

On that note, what if we had achieved Swansea’s sustained mid-table for 5 seasons? With good ticket prices for children, family-friendly policies, and a club that was well stewarded and engaged with fans, with a stadium capacity to handle demand? I would guess we could have 35-40k in there.

Is that a “big club”? Let’s try and define a list of categories:

1. Monster club (top 10-20%)
2. Big Club (top 30-40%)
3. Average Club (40-60% bracket)
4. Small club (bottom 30-40%)
5. A pygmy club (top 10-20%)

Now you have to define “big club”. So on fan base alone, given that “small clubs” have 2-3k of fans, and monster clubs like Spurs, Man Utd and Liverpool get 55-75 I would say this is the sort of thing you need to define a “big club”. The list is a starter, and by no means exhaustive, but a good opening gambit for debate, and my personal stab:

1. Commercial revenues in the top 30-40% of clubs in the English 4 professional divisions

2. Actual crowds in the top 30-40% of attendances (I would guess these days this is 30-45k perhaps, with top 20% being perhaps 45-65k?)

3. Potential crowds in the top 30-40% of attendances

4. A big catchment area, with little or mimimal competition, suggesting potential monopolistic possibilities for fan base

5.A strong brand

6. A history in recent or distant past that suggests possible large crowds

To me, league position is temporary and not a strong indicator as it is volatile. I would argue that Cardiff has elements of a big club (3,4 and elements of 6). If we agrre for simplicity on above definitions then maybe we are an “average club”, but with success in PL like Swansea we could be a “big club”, or have some elements of that.

Sheff Weds? With their crowds, and crowds when they were top flight, I think they could be called a big club. I think we would see similar crowds to them in the top flight if we both had similar success and priced our prices well for children.

But to answer your question well requires a good definition, rather than emotive answers or basing it on “crowds today”. Also, none of our opinions or views are testable by evidence until we sustained ourselves as a top 10 club. Only then can we be sure of what this club really is in the modern era.

My view is that we COULD have developed into a club with big support IF we had got into the top flight and stayed there for a long period

Essentially since the formation of the Premier league we have spent 2 seasons there?

Even Swansea managed what 6 or 7 years and played good football when they were there?

Have we ever been at the top table for an extended period of time ? Winning things helps of course but a lot of the well supported clubs have mostly been high up in the leagues for extended periods

Wolves came down with us to the old fourth but didn't stick around they sort of pulled themselves back as they had the backing ?

Mind you it surprises me that Pompey have been down so long

[splott parker]

Re: Historically big clubs

1993 Leeds won the league ?

It's in living memory

Most of the people who can remember when we won anything are dead

.

Football League Champions under Malky.

[splott parker]

Re: Historically big clubs

I reckon we missed the big club boat under Scoular. 60,000 capacity stadium, regular 25,000 + in the season we came third. Healthy ECWC attendances. 50,000+ in FA Cup ties against Arsenal & Leeds. Had we have gone up then & stayed up it could have blown the emergence of South Wales plastics out of the water, The City would have been the South Wales side perhaps even attracting & keeping West Wales & certainly Monmouthshire support due to the state of Swansea Town & Newport at that time.

[Keyser Soze]

Re: Historically big clubs

My view is that we COULD have developed into a club with big support IF we had got into the top flight and stayed there for a long period

Essentially since the formation of the Premier league we have spent 2 seasons there?

Even Swansea managed what 6 or 7 years and played good football when they were there?

Have we ever been at the top table for an extended period of time ? Winning things helps of course but a lot of the well supported clubs have mostly been high up in the leagues for extended periods

Wolves came down with us to the old fourth but didn't stick around they sort of pulled themselves back as they had the backing ?

Mind you it surprises me that Pompey have been down so long

OK I can ride with that, and hard to disagree. I started supporting City initially around 1991, but get the sense you have been here a while longer.

So as one of the more experienced fans here, let’s flip the question around and ask you these four key questions instead, because I have to admit I don’t know:

1. Do you believe, using the 6 point defintion I put up of a “big club” (not a “monster club” which is top 10-20% by crowds and revenue), that we are a big club?

2. Do you believe we can be defined under any possible future circumstances as a big club?

3. If so, what would do you think those circumstances could be, for us to be a “big club”? (e.g a sustained top10 posiiton over 5 years, Champ League qualification, 10 years in the Prem, cheap tickets for kids etc.)

4. If you don’t believe we can be a “big club”, what do you think is so permanent that prevents us ever being a “big club”?

Genuinely interested…

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Historically big clubs

We could be a big club , in terms of support , if we had sustained periods in the top flight

There is certainly the population base

But getting up and staying up is the key and unfortunately when we have managed promotion we have completely blown it

I would love to see us as an established big club in my lifetime or the lifetime of youngsters growing up and supporting City

We clearly ain't at the moment but we have to dream

In terms of population base Ipswich, Norwich, Brighton, Middlesborough, Bolton, Wigan , Burnley , Southampton, Stoke , Derby and others all have had longer periods in the top flight than us