Historically big clubs

[Packerman]

Re: Historically big clubs

Error

[Packerman]

Re: Historically big clubs

OK packerman I was wrong

👍

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Historically big clubs

In 52/53 City had the 8th highest average attendance in the league. With an average above Man Utd, Man City and Villa. Despite finishing mid-table in the top flight.

We played man city start of 83 84 season ?

Beat them , bodin scored

About 8500 there at Ninian

Lost up at Maine Road to two late goals after hemmerman scored

25000 if I remember

The theatre that is being played out these days with all the money is a different league but even back then Maine Road was a big old school ground and Man City were a big club

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Historically big clubs

👍

Do you think West ham would get full houses if they got relegated and stayed down ? ..which is what I should have said initially and was different to what i did say

United , Liverpool , Spurs , I think yes

[Packerman]

Re: Historically big clubs

Do you think West ham would get full houses if they got relegated and stayed down ? ..which is what I should have said initially and was different to what i did say

United , Liverpool , Spurs , I think yes

No idea tbh. I’ve lived in Romford and now live in ipswich and the fan base for West Ham is big in both these regions.more so in Romford obviously. Not sure spurs would sell out every week if they were marooned mid table in the championship.for a few seasons. But it’s not gonna happen to either club so we will never know.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Historically big clubs

No idea tbh. I’ve lived in Romford and now live in ipswich and the fan base for West Ham is big in both these regions.more so in Romford obviously. Not sure spurs would sell out every week if they were marooned mid table in the championship.for a few seasons. But it’s not gonna happen to either club so we will never know.

Well Leeds , Newcastle , Sunderland have had their bad patches so I wouldn't bet on it

West Ham are the most likely of the big London clubs to go down if anyone is ?

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Re: Historically big clubs

They get 'barely' 50k for most games. The Atmosphere is dreadful. Don't know who they were playing, but last week at home in the PL there couldn't have been 40k there and the place was less than half full at the end.

To add, there forum[s] are full of comments about the ground and the atmosphere, and talk of a new, purpose built stadium - without a running track. They reckon there were 15,000 empty seats at their last home game v Burnley.

[Tuerto]

Re: Historically big clubs

To add, there forum[s] are full of comments about the ground and the atmosphere, and talk of a new, purpose built stadium - without a running track. They reckon there were 15,000 empty seats at their last home game v Burnley.

Yes, although the likelihood is that they're paid for seats, so count towards the actual attendance. This is London, you have businesses buying up seats for corporate partners etc, affluent people who can afford to buy an expensive season ticket and use it as and when. Arsenal have some spaces at their ground, as do Man City. It's not uncommon.

[goats]

Re: Historically big clubs

We played man city start of 83 84 season ?

Beat them , bodin scored

About 8500 there at Ninian

Lost up at Maine Road to two late goals after hemmerman scored

25000 if I remember

The theatre that is being played out these days with all the money is a different league but even back then Maine Road was a big old school ground and Man City were a big club

Man City not the best example….clubs like Sunderland and Newcastle dipped to 15-18k regularly back then…..boro even less sub 10k

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Historically big clubs

Man City not the best example….clubs like Sunderland and Newcastle dipped to 15-18k regularly back then…..boro even less sub 10k

Maybe not , Man City were a well supported big city club long before the money came along

Boro not on the same level as Newcastle, Sunderland

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Re: Historically big clubs

What's driven our attendances in modern times has been as much to do with expectation and recognising the club's ambitions as to actual playing status. In the Rick Wright promotion season we averaged [I think] over 8,000, bigger than clubs in the [now] Championship. In our last game of the season we had 17,000 - more than Chelsea watched Everton at Stamford Bridge. As has been said, the club missed a chance to progress when it had momentum on it's side..

[Baloo]

Re: Historically big clubs

And way above leeds I would imagine ?

Yes, City almost doubled Leeds' average attendance that season.

[Forest Green Bluebird]

Re: Historically big clubs

I think this is one of the best questions that has been asked on this forum in many years. Superb! I give my opinion with some degree of certainty, but not entirely. Let’s look at our own club before Sheff Weds, as it is closer to home and more salient.

First of all, I think “big club” is partly factual, and partly subjective. For example, many have argued, as do I, that Cardiff is a “sleeping giant”. Others say “It isn’t because we cannot get crowds of more than 25k when we are doing well”. TLG was a big exponent of this line of thinking, if memory serves me well.

Now to answer “Are we a big club?” requires a business analysis and historical analysis, which with many these days squeaking “TLDR” before someone’s second paragraph is beyond the scope of this forum, due to some possessing attention spans of a retarded nat.

But I think it would be fair to say that TLG’s civil servant approach of saying “Well the evidence of the last 20 years says not” fails to account for looking back further in history when Cardiff was regularly in the top two, and drawing 45k plus. He would rightfully point out that when we did get promoted we still couldn’t nudge Northwards of 27k. That said, all we could do is fill the capacity we had. It is possible that demand may have been 30-35k, but I cannot prove that. Evidence does not account for possibilities and alternative scenarios.

On that note, what if we had achieved Swansea’s sustained mid-table for 5 seasons? With good ticket prices for children, family-friendly policies, and a club that was well stewarded and engaged with fans, with a stadium capacity to handle demand? I would guess we could have 35-40k in there.

Is that a “big club”? Let’s try and define a list of categories:

1. Monster club (top 10-20%)
2. Big Club (top 30-40%)
3. Average Club (40-60% bracket)
4. Small club (bottom 30-40%)
5. A pygmy club (top 10-20%)

Now you have to define “big club”. So on fan base alone, given that “small clubs” have 2-3k of fans, and monster clubs like Spurs, Man Utd and Liverpool get 55-75 I would say this is the sort of thing you need to define a “big club”. The list is a starter, and by no means exhaustive, but a good opening gambit for debate, and my personal stab:

1. Commercial revenues in the top 30-40% of clubs in the English 4 professional divisions

2. Actual crowds in the top 30-40% of attendances (I would guess these days this is 30-45k perhaps, with top 20% being perhaps 45-65k?)

3. Potential crowds in the top 30-40% of attendances

4. A big catchment area, with little or mimimal competition, suggesting potential monopolistic possibilities for fan base

5.A strong brand

6. A history in recent or distant past that suggests possible large crowds

To me, league position is temporary and not a strong indicator as it is volatile. I would argue that Cardiff has elements of a big club (3,4 and elements of 6). If we agrre for simplicity on above definitions then maybe we are an “average club”, but with success in PL like Swansea we could be a “big club”, or have some elements of that.

Sheff Weds? With their crowds, and crowds when they were top flight, I think they could be called a big club. I think we would see similar crowds to them in the top flight if we both had similar success and priced our prices well for children.

But to answer your question well requires a good definition, rather than emotive answers or basing it on “crowds today”. Also, none of our opinions or views are testable by evidence until we sustained ourselves as a top 10 club. Only then can we be sure of what this club really is in the modern era.

How about factoring in the amount of fans who travel away?

Championship average away attendance table: 2023-24
Sunderland – 2,969
Leeds United – 2,948
Sheffield Wednesday – 2,529
Leicester City – 2,524
Ipswich Town – 2,422
Coventry City – 2,292
Plymouth Argyle – 2,242
Birmingham City – 2,159
Southampton – 2,089
Middlesbrough – 1,952
West Brom – 1,756
Stoke City – 1,732
Preston North End – 1,724
Bristol City – 1,717.
Norwich City – 1,515
QPR – 1,385
Blackburn Rovers – 1,292
Hull City – 1,225
Cardiff City – 1,162
Watford – 1,147
Huddersfield Town – 1,105
Millwall – 1,079
Rotherham United – 1,032
Swansea City – 1,005