Has 20mph made our roads safer?

[PaulWent76]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

Not according to this link. Sorry it's from Nation.cymru but that doesn't change the data that it contains.

https://nation.cymru/news/group-doubts-20mph-default-speed-limit-has-made-welsh-roads-safer/

A summary of the graphs for those who can't be bothered with the link. They contain comparisons between the last quarters of 2022 and 2023, so the 2023 data is after the 20mph limits were introduced.

Deaths on roads 30mph and lower: 8 in 2022 and 7 in 2023, so 1 fewer in 2023. As many deaths on 20mph roads as there were in 2022 on 30mph roads.

Serious injuries: down from 120 in 2022 to 105 in 2023.

Seriously injured motorcyclists and cyclists: up from 52 to 65 in 2023.

None of this comes as a surprise to me. Has it been worth it? Not at all.

When you say ‘not at all’, would you be prepared to repeat that to the parent of a child that is part of the 15 seriously injured delta?
You have my deepest sympathy that it takes you longer to get from A to B than it used to.
On the subject of the increase in motorcycle and cyclists injuries, my simple knowledge of physics suggests that kinetic energy is usually the problem with road accidents. I’d be interested to see details of why the numbers have gone up.

[Jimmy the Jock]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

When you say ‘not at all’, would you be prepared to repeat that to the parent of a child that is part of the 15 seriously injured delta?
You have my deepest sympathy that it takes you longer to get from A to B than it used to.
On the subject of the increase in motorcycle and cyclists injuries, my simple knowledge of physics suggests that kinetic energy is usually the problem with road accidents. I’d be interested to see details of why the numbers have gone up.

Rather than facts and figures can we see how and why there were accidents?
20MPH is fine around schools , possibly even built up areas where there a many pedestrians .
20MPH on Ocean Way is ridiculous , there are next to zero pedestrians , its a fairly wide road and not that busy .
Thankfully there is enough room to get past the super careful driver doing 15mph as he doesn't want to break any laws .
I would like to see the demographic of those involved in the accidents , were they speeding, paying attention to road conditions etc etc .
Whilst I try to stay away from politics I do feel it was Drakeford leaving his mark on society .

[Jimmy the Jock]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

When you say ‘not at all’, would you be prepared to repeat that to the parent of a child that is part of the 15 seriously injured delta?
You have my deepest sympathy that it takes you longer to get from A to B than it used to.
On the subject of the increase in motorcycle and cyclists injuries, my simple knowledge of physics suggests that kinetic energy is usually the problem with road accidents. I’d be interested to see details of why the numbers have gone up.

So they were hurt by a driver doing more than 20mph ? Where do you get these facts from . I am genuinely interested.

[caerkid]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

Deaths on roads 30mph and lower: 8 in 2022 and 7 in 2023, so 1 fewer in 2023. As many deaths on 20mph roads as there were in 2022 on 30mph roads.

A 13% decrease in deaths sounds very good to me. Perhaps you can explain to that family though how that life wasn't worth it, compared to the inconvenience of drivers having to go a little bit slower ?

Your second sentence isn't a fair comparison as the total number of 20mph roads in 2023 is far higher than the number of 30mph roads that existed in 2022 (as it includes all of the 30mph roads that have become 20mph and all of the roads that were already 20mph). You are comparing apples with oranges. That is why the 'all roads under 30mph' figure is far more useful.

Luckily the opening line to the article you linked to sums up where this is coming from. 'A group that opposes the default 20mph speed limit in Wales has sought to discredit claims that the change has made roads safer.'

[BLUETIT]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

Rather than facts and figures can we see how and why there were accidents?
20MPH is fine around schools , possibly even built up areas where there a many pedestrians .
20MPH on Ocean Way is ridiculous , there are next to zero pedestrians , its a fairly wide road and not that busy .
Thankfully there is enough room to get past the super careful driver doing 15mph as he doesn't want to break any laws .
I would like to see the demographic of those involved in the accidents , were they speeding, paying attention to road conditions etc etc .
Whilst I try to stay away from politics I do feel it was Drakeford leaving his mark on society .

Very clever, I see what you did there James

[PaulWent76]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

So they were hurt by a driver doing more than 20mph ? Where do you get these facts from . I am genuinely interested.

I think caerkid answered your question for me but I got the facts from EHBs original post. I have no idea about the specific speeds.

Deaths on roads 30mph and lower: 8 in 2022 and 7 in 2023, so 1 fewer in 2023. As many deaths on 20mph roads as there were in 2022 on 30mph roads.

Serious injuries: down from 120 in 2022 to 105 in 2023.

I assume that his comment about deaths being the same was that 7 deaths is statistically the same as 8. The 15 fewer serious injuries is a bigger change but I guess if you were or were related to the on extra death that 1 extra might be very significant.

I have worked in the car industry where these calculations go on regularly. Car companies know that if they made cars out of rubber and stopped them driving at more than 5mph there would be near zero deaths. But that would be ridiculous so a calculation has to be made effectively deciding how many deaths is ‘tolerable’. Governments have to make the same decisions.

Regarding the ‘outside schools fair enough’ argument, my mates mother was knocked down on cowbridge road and lost a leg. The driver was not speeding. It was 30mph at the time. If the speed limit was 20 the driver would have stood a better chance of not hitting her and if he did, she would’ve stood a better chance of having less serious injuries. But as I said I hope driving slower doesn’t upset you too much.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

When you say ‘not at all’, would you be prepared to repeat that to the parent of a child that is part of the 15 seriously injured delta?
You have my deepest sympathy that it takes you longer to get from A to B than it used to.
On the subject of the increase in motorcycle and cyclists injuries, my simple knowledge of physics suggests that kinetic energy is usually the problem with road accidents. I’d be interested to see details of why the numbers have gone up.

I have always said that, if my 11-year-old son got run over on a road and the driver wasn't to blame (dangerous driving, driving under the influence or without due care and attention), it would have been his own fault.

There are more serious accidents and fatalities on faster roads yet nothing was done about them to make them safer. In this whole debate surrounding speed limits, the one that keeps being shoved down our throats is the one about someone's child being seriously injured. Mercifully, the number of children being killed or seriously injured on roads with a 30mph or slower limit is very small indeed and, as a percentage, far more adults are killed or injured in those speed limits. I was surprised to discover that many were injured or killed when it was dark. These stats don't say whether an idiot pedestrian wearing earphones has just walked out in front of a car, oblivious to whether anything is coming. They don't say whether someone is pissed or out of their mind on drugs and has no idea of road safety. The stats I saw on StatsWales last year did show that many deaths and serious injuries were caused by dangerous driving.

I would say that no-one objects to 20mph limits around schools and in built up housing estates. I certainly don't. I do object to some on arterial roads where there is a) no history of accidents and b) where there is little around to cause accidents. Around me I know of roads around a mile in length where there are no houses and rarely ever any pedestrians but have been changed, yet other built up roads have reverted back to 30. Why should they be 20mph? That's my only issue. Where safe to do so, 20mph limits are utterly pointless. A blanket approach, which was going to reduce deaths and serious injuries significantly, hasn't achieved that so far and was never going to if the stats had been looked at properly. Moves to educate people on road safety and dangerous/drunk/drug driving would be far better. I seem to see more people using mobile phones when they drive as well, but let's blame things on 30mph roads.....

There are around 300 million car journeys alone made in Wales per quarter. Most will drive along a 20 or 30mph road at some point. There were 112 deaths or serious injuries on those roads, so 99.9999% of all road journeys on those speed limits pass by safely. Yet, because of dangerous drivers, those under the influence and other road users doing similar, everyone has to trundle along. The real problem isn't those drivers who drive safely, of whom virtually all will have an accident-free motoring life.

[Rjk]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

everywhere else it has been introduced it has led to a reduction in road deaths, is there any sensible reason that Wales would be different?

I've always said we should wait until it has been in place a year and then evaluate the changes

[Dembe]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

I am getting used to the 20 now. Not arsed, as long as theres not some twat behind me trying to push me up over 30 (usually the ones that drop out of view when the roads go to 50/60 as they'll plod on at 40)

[PaulWent76]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

Eric
I hope you and your son stay safe.
Cheers for the discussion.

[North Cardiff Blue]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

I have always said that, if my 11-year-old son got run over on a road and the driver wasn't to blame (dangerous driving, driving under the influence or without due care and attention), it would have been his own fault.

There are more serious accidents and fatalities on faster roads yet nothing was done about them to make them safer. In this whole debate surrounding speed limits, the one that keeps being shoved down our throats is the one about someone's child being seriously injured. Mercifully, the number of children being killed or seriously injured on roads with a 30mph or slower limit is very small indeed and, as a percentage, far more adults are killed or injured in those speed limits. I was surprised to discover that many were injured or killed when it was dark. These stats don't say whether an idiot pedestrian wearing earphones has just walked out in front of a car, oblivious to whether anything is coming. They don't say whether someone is pissed or out of their mind on drugs and has no idea of road safety. The stats I saw on StatsWales last year did show that many deaths and serious injuries were caused by dangerous driving.

I would say that no-one objects to 20mph limits around schools and in built up housing estates. I certainly don't. I do object to some on arterial roads where there is a) no history of accidents and b) where there is little around to cause accidents. Around me I know of roads around a mile in length where there are no houses and rarely ever any pedestrians but have been changed, yet other built up roads have reverted back to 30. Why should they be 20mph? That's my only issue. Where safe to do so, 20mph limits are utterly pointless. A blanket approach, which was going to reduce deaths and serious injuries significantly, hasn't achieved that so far and was never going to if the stats had been looked at properly. Moves to educate people on road safety and dangerous/drunk/drug driving would be far better. I seem to see more people using mobile phones when they drive as well, but let's blame things on 30mph roads.....

There are around 300 million car journeys alone made in Wales per quarter. Most will drive along a 20 or 30mph road at some point. There were 112 deaths or serious injuries on those roads, so 99.9999% of all road journeys on those speed limits pass by safely. Yet, because of dangerous drivers, those under the influence and other road users doing similar, everyone has to trundle along. The real problem isn't those drivers who drive safely, of whom virtually all will have an accident-free motoring life.

Good post

[Dembe]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

I think caerkid answered your question for me but I got the facts from EHBs original post. I have no idea about the specific speeds.

Deaths on roads 30mph and lower: 8 in 2022 and 7 in 2023, so 1 fewer in 2023. As many deaths on 20mph roads as there were in 2022 on 30mph roads.

Serious injuries: down from 120 in 2022 to 105 in 2023.

I assume that his comment about deaths being the same was that 7 deaths is statistically the same as 8. The 15 fewer serious injuries is a bigger change but I guess if you were or were related to the on extra death that 1 extra might be very significant.

I have worked in the car industry where these calculations go on regularly. Car companies know that if they made cars out of rubber and stopped them driving at more than 5mph there would be near zero deaths. But that would be ridiculous so a calculation has to be made effectively deciding how many deaths is ‘tolerable’. Governments have to make the same decisions.

Regarding the ‘outside schools fair enough’ argument, my mates mother was knocked down on cowbridge road and lost a leg. The driver was not speeding. It was 30mph at the time. If the speed limit was 20 the driver would have stood a better chance of not hitting her and if he did, she would’ve stood a better chance of having less serious injuries. But as I said I hope driving slower doesn’t upset you too much.

Instead of reducing speeds and having rubber cars couldn't we do more to educate drivers and pedestrians?

[Dembe]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

I have always said that, if my 11-year-old son got run over on a road and the driver wasn't to blame (dangerous driving, driving under the influence or without due care and attention), it would have been his own fault.

There are more serious accidents and fatalities on faster roads yet nothing was done about them to make them safer. In this whole debate surrounding speed limits, the one that keeps being shoved down our throats is the one about someone's child being seriously injured. Mercifully, the number of children being killed or seriously injured on roads with a 30mph or slower limit is very small indeed and, as a percentage, far more adults are killed or injured in those speed limits. I was surprised to discover that many were injured or killed when it was dark. These stats don't say whether an idiot pedestrian wearing earphones has just walked out in front of a car, oblivious to whether anything is coming. They don't say whether someone is pissed or out of their mind on drugs and has no idea of road safety. The stats I saw on StatsWales last year did show that many deaths and serious injuries were caused by dangerous driving.

I would say that no-one objects to 20mph limits around schools and in built up housing estates. I certainly don't. I do object to some on arterial roads where there is a) no history of accidents and b) where there is little around to cause accidents. Around me I know of roads around a mile in length where there are no houses and rarely ever any pedestrians but have been changed, yet other built up roads have reverted back to 30. Why should they be 20mph? That's my only issue. Where safe to do so, 20mph limits are utterly pointless. A blanket approach, which was going to reduce deaths and serious injuries significantly, hasn't achieved that so far and was never going to if the stats had been looked at properly. Moves to educate people on road safety and dangerous/drunk/drug driving would be far better. I seem to see more people using mobile phones when they drive as well, but let's blame things on 30mph roads.....

There are around 300 million car journeys alone made in Wales per quarter. Most will drive along a 20 or 30mph road at some point. There were 112 deaths or serious injuries on those roads, so 99.9999% of all road journeys on those speed limits pass by safely. Yet, because of dangerous drivers, those under the influence and other road users doing similar, everyone has to trundle along. The real problem isn't those drivers who drive safely, of whom virtually all will have an accident-free motoring life.

[nomad blue]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

I think people have just gone back to their usual speeds in the main. Cardiff is slow anyway as there’s lights every 200 ft so barely any point. From what I can gather there’s been more accidents as people are watching their speedo ins tread of the road. There were barely any fatalities anyway in 30 zones. It wasn’t done for safety anyway, just another deluded control freak.

If more people are crashing because they can't cope with checking their speed, those drivers probably shouldn't be on the road in the first place.

[Dembe]

Re: Has 20mph made our roads safer?

If more people are crashing because they can't cope with checking their speed, those drivers probably shouldn't be on the road in the first place.

The reasoning people come up with for things cam be quite hilarious