Immigration and The NHS

[life on mars]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

I don't think it's as simple as the NHS "poaching" medical staff from poorer countries, leaving those countries with denuded health systems. Many medically-trained professionals from developing countries can't wait to move to a system where the pay and conditions are far superior.

This phenomenon is also true for UK-trained medical professionals who move to the US because the pay is way better here. So the UK loses a lot of staff because of the same revolving door.

Loses to Australia and Harley Street /Bupa Private Clinics as well Nurse training at a cost of £70k a pop one could argue we are losing dosh ,perhaps some form of recipience should exist for those who exit the NHS within a certain time period after training .

Even more worrying “It costs £230,000 to train a doctor in England ""

[WJ99mobile]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

Thank feck for them. We’d be screwed without the dedication

It’s all to do with money for me though, there’s enough people here to fill the vacancies, but unfortunately they’re either disincentivized to do the role for the money (both higher and lower ends) or locked out due to lack of funding for training.

If there was cheaper childcare, more incentive to work than not to, cheaper public transport then perhaps we wouldn’t be so heavily reliant on foreign labour. The easy and cheaper option is just to import cheaply.

But for the families that have come over and helped our country they should be applauded

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

its a bit hard to give pay rises beyond that when many workers lost their jobs during this time. Most medical professionals I know were worked to exhaustion, but appreciated they were still being paid.

the proof of what this government believes their worth to be comes after the pandemic, when things settle down and we return to some normality regarding tax and spending.

well thats what Boris said , we love you , thanks for the effort but here is a few quid ....piss off

Most professionals I know hate this government and never mentioned the fact they were glad they were being paid

Doctors , nurses , physios , carers

Drakeford has his hands tied but at least he tried to help them

[xsnaggle]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

following the pandemic , after Boris came out clapping like a seal, he rewarded the nurses with a 1 percent pay rise

No wonder there is a shortfall of nurses in the UK

No he didn't SLUDGE.. just tell the truth. Its not too hard

[life on mars]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

well thats what Boris said , we love you , thanks for the effort but here is a few quid ....piss off

Most professionals I know hate this government and never mentioned the fact they were glad they were being paid

Doctors , nurses , physios , carers

Drakeford has his hands tied but at least he tried to help them

Not checked my facts : were previous Labour governments involved in this process, or has Boris been in charge for ever ??

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

No he didn't SLUDGE.. just tell the truth. Its not too hard

Boris Johnson voted down a pay rise for the nurses

The pandemic came along

He recovered

He thanked the nurses outside downing Street for saving his life

Said the NHS were fantastic

Then in the budget his gimp gave a one percent pay award to the NHS which the doctors and nurses leaders said was laughable

And they were right

What else can you add ?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

Not checked my facts : were previous Labour governments involved in this process, or has Boris been in charge for ever ??

Involved in the 2021 one percent pay award to nurses ?

That was Boris

I always laugh when the tories on here try to squirm around the issue of the NHS

The tories have been at it for years Hancock and the previous creep both had interests in private health care companies

Get thee behind me Satan

[xsnaggle]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

Involved in the 2021 one percent pay award to nurses ?

That was Boris

I always laugh when the tories on here try to squirm around the issue of the NHS

The tories have been at it for years Hancock and the previous creep both had interests in private health care companies

Get thee behind me Satan

I agree 100% rhat they deserve a decent increase but Boris does not decide how much. That is recommended by an independent committee. He did say he didn't think the government could afford more than 1%, trying to influence their decision. But that is not awarding anything.

[AfricanBluebird]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

The valleys wouldn't have doctors in many towns if it wasn't for immigration from the Indian sub continent

Huge influx of philipino nurses to the main hospitals in South Wales too

This is true.

I had Asian doctors all my life in Wales.

They were fantastic and served the community with dignity and respect.

Some of the comments about them "**** doctor" etc was ridiculous. Schoolboy stupid stuff. But for the most part people responded well and respected their profession and skin colour.

I think though it is true to say they didn't like small talk much... Don't blame them and often it was because they had limited cultural references to engage with people on.. so some Welsh people found this a bit rude. I never did.

[AfricanBluebird]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

Not checked my facts : were previous Labour governments involved in this process, or has Boris been in charge for ever ??

I think this is a tired argument ... Tories have been in power for nearly 75% of the time since 1978. We have only has 13 years of a non Tory government in the last 42 including a run of the last 11 years.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

It's more than a thought - it's immoral. A poor country training doctors and nurses only be poached by the NHS is wrong. It shouldn't happen and is a failure of successive governments in training UK staff.

The NHS has a quota for qualified personnel from each individual country, depending on how dependent each one is upon home-grown medical staff

[Vindec]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

The NHS has a quota for qualified personnel from each individual country, depending on how dependent each one is upon home-grown medical staff

As it happens this is a subject I know something about. In recent years the quality of medical staff coming from abroad was excellent. Now it's less so in some cases. Hospital Trusts increasingly use Agencies to recruit staff particularly from Africa, India and the Phillipines. Before an applicant gets accepted they have to sit an English exam. Those coming from most Malaysian countries are generally excellent. The problem in some cases is that when the new recruits arrive at their allotted NHS Trust many can't speak English suggesting that others are taking the exam for them. The upshot is that Hospital Trusts have to send the new recruits for English lessons. The same goes for technical competence where the new staff require a lot of supervision, have little idea how to handle patients leading to the suspicion their qualifications maybe as suspect as their English tests. I think this issue was touched upon very subtly by an earlier poster.


I emphasis that this is a relatively recent problem as up to fairly recent times the calibre of recruits was good and evidently the NHS couldn't survive without them.

The massive push to recruit staff is the issue here. The present government's desire to recruit 50000 nurses means that their recruitment standards have lowered. Had the government trained its own staff this issue would not have arisen. Their decision to cease bursaries a couple of years back hasn't helped and they have now reinstated them but too late.

However, as a general point and notwithstanding what is said above, it doesn't seem morally right for the UK to poach staff from countries whose need for medical staff is probably greater than ours.

[az city]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

I agree 100% rhat they deserve a decent increase but Boris does not decide how much. That is recommended by an independent committee. He did say he didn't think the government could afford more than 1%, trying to influence their decision. But that is not awarding anything.

Oh dear, here we are again. What the NHS Pay Review Body's remit involves is making recommendations that the government can choose to adhere to or ignore. It regularly does the latter.

Here's the 2020 Report Executive Summary: https://assets.publishing.service.go...Accessible.pdf

I'm not taking sides here but effectively the Tories could have said "bugger the recommendations, have a bonus" to thank medical staff for their frontline work during the pandemic. My understanding is there is/was noting legally to stop them doing so.

[az city]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

As it happens this is a subject I know something about. In recent years the quality of medical staff coming from abroad was excellent. Now it's less so in some cases. Hospital Trusts increasingly use Agencies to recruit staff particularly from Africa, India and the Phillipines. Before an applicant gets accepted they have to sit an English exam. Those coming from most Malaysian countries are generally excellent. The problem in some cases is that when the new recruits arrive at their allotted NHS Trust many can't speak English suggesting that others are taking the exam for them. The upshot is that Hospital Trusts have to send the new recruits for English lessons. The same goes for technical competence where the new staff require a lot of supervision, have little idea how to handle patients leading to the suspicion their qualifications maybe as suspect as their English tests. I think this issue was touched upon very subtly by an earlier poster.


I emphasis that this is a relatively recent problem as up to fairly recent times the calibre of recruits was good and evidently the NHS couldn't survive without them.

The massive push to recruit staff is the issue here. The present government's desire to recruit 50000 nurses means that their recruitment standards have lowered. Had the government trained its own staff this issue would not have arisen. Their decision to cease bursaries a couple of years back hasn't helped and they have now reinstated them but too late.

However, as a general point and notwithstanding what is said above, it doesn't seem morally right for the UK to poach staff from countries whose need for medical staff is probably greater than ours.

I agree completely that a strategy designed to take staff from developing nations is morally bankrupt but, just to repeat he point I made above, you have to remember the staff themselves mostly want to move to countries that pay more. That is why the US is so attractive with salaries often in excess of $600k for some specialisms.

I thin the real problem here is a lack of supply of trained medical staff worldwide. I wonder the extent to which the UK government is aware of this supply-side problem in the UK but actually plans for foreign-trained medical staff in its personpower assessments.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Immigration and The NHS

I agree 100% rhat they deserve a decent increase but Boris does not decide how much. That is recommended by an independent committee. He did say he didn't think the government could afford more than 1%, trying to influence their decision. But that is not awarding anything.

Thats incorrect

The government make recommendations to the pay body

The pay body make suggestions to the government

The government , Boris and his chancellor , then deciede