Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

[dembethewarrior]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

Hmmm, if I was living under a bridge with rats to keep me company, would I be thinking of the quality of French sport, the sophisticated bars and buildings, the beautiful country side and maybe, just maybe, a chateau if I work hard enough and the French property market levels out? Add to that, a biffing accent that makes the ladies quiver.
Or would I be thinking of getting to a country with a sizeable community from my culture, country or surrounding countries with the chance of a bed and the opportunity to earn a few quid on the black market. It's a difficult decision.

"Or would I be thinking of getting to a country with a sizeable community from my culture"

Apologies if I have read this wrong, I have a habit of doing that on here, but isn't there a sizeable African and Muslim community on France?

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

Saying it doesn't, same as saying Jewish lives matter or all lives matter doesn't.

The organisation though, at the forefront of identity politics fundamentally is shifting how we view society, entrenching within us that our most important characteristics are those which we cannot control; sex, skin colour, nationality etc

By endlessly prefixing people with a skin colour you seperate us up. Sometimes that is relevent in understanding social issues, but usually it isn't.

There is very little progressive about it. It is the wrong diagnosis of the problem and when you get the diagnosis wrong, you get the medicine to fix it wrong. For example, there has been a massive increase in black people murdered in the last year as police have retreated more. This helps no one. It's far from all tied to th BLM movement but it's all connected. There is no focus on what actually kills most black people.

I don't advocate some of the extremists that latch on to 'all lives matter' anymore than the small minority of extremists those who latch onto 'black lives matter' (and someone who does and who posted about killing white people murdered six of them last week by driving his car into them).

It's just all very reactionary and the end result will drive us apart and amplify difference, where we stop seeing people and start seeing a colour.

There's loads of interesting articles on it.

https://unherd.com/2020/08/why-racial-categories-are-reactionary/

https://youtu.be/HT0P3eeMO08

Sorry, but I think that's a load of bunkum.

You have the opportunity to say three words. Black Lives Matter. That's all it is. I couldn't give a flying feck if such a phrase has been hijacked by some extremists. How can anyone say 'All Lives Matter' but can't say 'Black Lives Matter'?

In the UK we live in a predominantly white, Christian/non-believing society where men get on better than women, where most people are heterosexual. We have lived in a society where hatred towards those who don't fit that description has been normalised in generations gone by.

I have friends and family who are homosexual. The fight of the homosexual community to have equality continues. I will happily support Gay pride. I get pissed off when w@nkers ask why gay people need gay pride, when there is no equivalent for straight people. It misses the point completely.

I have black friends. Racism is still a massive problem in this country whether we admit it or not. I don't know what it is like to suffer racism. Most black people here do. That is unacceptable. That is why Black Lives Matter to me. Solidarity with fellow human beings and standing up to say racism is unacceptable. I'm proud to say it.

For all of your "I can see both sides of the story" and "I read both sides of the argument", if your dislike for saying 'Black Lives Matters' is because of a few extremists, then you're a cockwomble.

[JamesWales]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

Sorry, but I think that's a load of bunkum.

You have the opportunity to say three words. Black Lives Matter. That's all it is. I couldn't give a flying feck if such a phrase has been hijacked by some extremists. How can anyone say 'All Lives Matter' but can't say 'Black Lives Matter'?

In the UK we live in a predominantly white, Christian/non-believing society where men get on better than women, where most people are heterosexual. We have lived in a society where hatred towards those who don't fit that description has been normalised in generations gone by.

I have friends and family who are homosexual. The fight of the homosexual community to have equality continues. I will happily support Gay pride. I get pissed off when w@nkers ask why gay people need gay pride, when there is no equivalent for straight people. It misses the point completely.

I have black friends. Racism is still a massive problem in this country whether we admit it or not. I don't know what it is like to suffer racism. Most black people here do. That is unacceptable. That is why Black Lives Matter to me. Solidarity with fellow human beings and standing up to say racism is unacceptable. I'm proud to say it.

For all of your "I can see both sides of the story" and "I read both sides of the argument", if your dislike for saying 'Black Lives Matters' is because of a few extremists, then you're a cockwomble.

I don't dispute what you say and like you I have a pretty diverse range of friends. I just don't think it will work. Ultimately it will drum racialised thinking into people and not solve the issues at hand. I don't think there's much evidence it's helping at all. Fundamentally I think when you endlessly emphasise the difference then you bake that difference into thinking and policies. Do we really view the United States as an example we want to follow on race politics? Really?

Also, nearly every social metric is worse for men than women btw. But the point is we all can suffer. Some more than others of course and it's important to focus on that, I just don't think the BLM movement is the right movement to do that

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

I don't dispute what you say and like you I have a pretty diverse range of friends. I just don't think it will work. Ultimately it will drum racialised thinking into people and not solve the issues at hand. I don't think there's much evidence it's helping at all. Fundamentally I think when you endlessly emphasise the difference then you bake that difference into thinking and policies. Do we really view the United States as an example we want to follow on race politics? Really?

Also, nearly every social metric is worse for men than women btw. But the point is we all can suffer. Some more than others of course and it's important to focus on that, I just don't think the BLM movement is the right movement to do that

What fecking movement? It's three words.

[Croesy Blue]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

Sorry, but I think that's a load of bunkum.

You have the opportunity to say three words. Black Lives Matter. That's all it is. I couldn't give a flying feck if such a phrase has been hijacked by some extremists. How can anyone say 'All Lives Matter' but can't say 'Black Lives Matter'?

In the UK we live in a predominantly white, Christian/non-believing society where men get on better than women, where most people are heterosexual. We have lived in a society where hatred towards those who don't fit that description has been normalised in generations gone by.

I have friends and family who are homosexual. The fight of the homosexual community to have equality continues. I will happily support Gay pride. I get pissed off when w@nkers ask why gay people need gay pride, when there is no equivalent for straight people. It misses the point completely.

I have black friends. Racism is still a massive problem in this country whether we admit it or not. I don't know what it is like to suffer racism. Most black people here do. That is unacceptable. That is why Black Lives Matter to me. Solidarity with fellow human beings and standing up to say racism is unacceptable. I'm proud to say it.

For all of your "I can see both sides of the story" and "I read both sides of the argument", if your dislike for saying 'Black Lives Matters' is because of a few extremists, then you're a cockwomble.

Not worth it mate, this has been going on for years and if people still haven’t grasped the basic fact and would rather pontificate about alt right buzz words than just say that racism is bad then they never will.

In a lot of the world (especially America) it is obvious currently a black life is worth less than a non black one. All black people want is to be treated equally. And certain people would rather stir just say oh but what about non black people, like they really give a shit.

[JamesWales]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

What fecking movement? It's three words.

In which case, so to is all lives matter just a mere three words.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

In which case, so to is all lives matter just a mere three words.

Indeed. Which fails to recognise the troubles black people go through and makes sure white people are included in such a slogan. Misses the point completely.

[JamesWales]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

Indeed. Which fails to recognise the troubles black people go through and makes sure white people are included in such a slogan. Misses the point completely.

I disagree, but that's fine. To clarify though, the words in lower case are uncontroversial and obvious. The organisation however isn't and shouldn't be beyond criticism

As to whether all of these creates a more racially harmonious society I am extremely doubtful.

What we do know is that surveys on race relations amongst white and black people have nose dived since 2015. At some point you have to ask if the current rhetoric is helping the situation.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1687/race-relations.aspx

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

Not worth it mate, this has been going on for years and if people still haven’t grasped the basic fact and would rather pontificate about alt right buzz words than just say that racism is bad then they never will.

In a lot of the world (especially America) it is obvious currently a black life is worth less than a non black one. All black people want is to be treated equally. And certain people would rather stir just say oh but what about non black people, like they really give a shit.

I think at some point 'saying racism is bad' isn't going to be enough to achieve anything.

I think people are probably discriminated against as much because of wealth/income/social status as they are their race in this country. Do you think you would face more barriers to your own personal success as a wealthy black person or a poor white person? The fact that I have asked that question probably demonstrates what my answer is.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that my main concern would be structural racism that impacts upon life chances but my gut feeling tells me this is as much to do with the black community being poorer and from poorer areas on average than *actual* racism and I think the outcomes with poor white communities are shit as well. That isn't to say that their aren't organisations that appear to have internal issues with race (I am thinking the met police as a frequent example), but for me the key driver here is probably going to be income inequality.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

I disagree, but that's fine. To clarify though, the words in lower case are uncontroversial and obvious. The organisation however isn't and shouldn't be beyond criticism

As to whether all of these creates a more racially harmonious society I am extremely doubtful.

What we do know is that surveys on race relations amongst white and black people have nose dived since 2015. At some point you have to ask if the current rhetoric is helping the situation.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1687/race-relations.aspx

So more recognition that race relations need improving has led to it getting worse. Racists coming out.

[JamesWales]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

So more recognition that race relations need improving has led to it getting worse. Racists coming out.

Or..since the rise of identity politics race relations have declined and maybe a new approach is needed?

It's a valid discussion to have and an important topic to discuss

[Croesy Blue]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

I think at some point 'saying racism is bad' isn't going to be enough to achieve anything.

I think people are probably discriminated against as much because of wealth/income/social status as they are their race in this country. Do you think you would face more barriers to your own personal success as a wealthy black person or a poor white person? The fact that I have asked that question probably demonstrates what my answer is.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that my main concern would be structural racism that impacts upon life chances but my gut feeling tells me this is as much to do with the black community being poorer and from poorer areas on average than *actual* racism and I think the outcomes with poor white communities are shit as well. That isn't to say that their aren't organisations that appear to have internal issues with race (I am thinking the met police as a frequent example), but for me the key driver here is probably going to be income inequality.

I’d say both are factors. I listened to a podcast that has a few black American athletes on it and their kids still suffer from racism. Even buying million dollar mansions they were treated differently.

That’s not to say income inequality is not a massive issue but if you had white and black person with the exact same inequality who would have it harder?

People saying all lives matter don’t give a shit about the poor either though .

[delmbox]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

My point was that the debate has become so utterly preposterous that someone felt, admittedly in jest perhaps, that saying 'all lives matter' is comparable to trying to prevent the RNLI from saving drowning people.

If this is referring to me no that wasn't what I was saying. What I meant was that I'd bet that I bet that when the BLM protests were in the news the people protesting the lifeboats would have been banging on about All Lives Matter.

Here's a Venn Diagram to explain what I'm getting at:

Screenshot 2021-11-30 at 22.39.21.jpg

[Croesy Blue]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

If someone can’t comprehend why the origin of all lives matter is disingenuous and why using it purposefully undermines an anti racism message. I doubt that venn diagram will explain anything to them.

[JamesWales]

Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

I’d say both are factors. I listened to a podcast that has a few black American athletes on it and their kids still suffer from racism. Even buying million dollar mansions they were treated differently.

That’s not to say income inequality is not a massive issue but if you had white and black person with the exact same inequality who would have it harder?

People saying all lives matter don’t give a shit about the poor either though .

"People who say all lives matter don't give a shit about the poor either".

Jesus. You just make this bigoted stuff up.