This Eu vaccine row

[the other bob wilson]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Clocks must have gone forward.
No doubt there will be plenty of bright, eager “FBPE” warriors happy to slay “The Gammon” in the morning.

i see I didn't misjudge you at all.

The EU have got this wrong, I think almost everyone agrees on it, but it's interesting to see Leave voters and/or supporters descending on this one thread like hungry pigs around a trough - it rather tends to support the notion that there's been little or nothing before now to get their teeth into.

[jon1959]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Hand on heart do you honestly believe that the UK had any clout when we were in the EU ?

If you remember Cameron sought to get concessions from the EU whilst we were in the organisation. It was widely reported that his efforts failed miserably and he was then surprised that the referendum result didn't go the way he was expecting.

In or out we were never strong enough to influence the way the EU was being run.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-in-brussels-had-been-far-greater-than-recognised/

[xsnaggle]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

well the flaws with the EU were obvious and things needed to change

But we have left now

Well that was part of the preoblem Sudge. Cameron tried hard to change them and failed.
Largely due to France as usual.

[Croesy Blue]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Did Cameron fail? I thought we managed to make quite a difference during that stage?

[Moodybluebird]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/...an-recognised/

Have you actually read that ? It's littered with references to the 1970's and 80's. The authors really are clutching at straws in trying to emphasise the UK's influence in Europe. It has been been waning for many, many years.

[Swiss Peter]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/...an-recognised/

Indeed. We were members of the club (with all the benefits it bestowed) but had every opportunity to walk away from the things we didn't like. It was almost like having the cake and eating it. Or to articulate it better, from your article,

"And on those occasions where the UK really was uncomfortable with the direction of travel taken by its partners, it proved highly successful in negotiating effective opt-outs. These can arguably traced back to its 1978-9 decision to refrain from participating fully in the European Monetary System and proliferated during the 1990s and the first years of the 21st century, eventually covering Euro membership, participation in Schengen, and important aspects of justice and home affairs provisions".

Having said that, the actions of the EU (which they backed away from after all of 2 hours) were quite shocking and politically motivated. They have acted too slowly and too cautiously regarding vaccines and backed the wrong ones.

Don't forget that our government did not pick a winner. They pretty much bought any vaccine going... it was like betting on all the horses in the race and then saying you won. Will we be paying for this for years to come?.

[Vindec]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

I

Don't forget that our government did not pick a winner. They pretty much bought any vaccine going... it was like betting on all the horses in the race and then saying you won. Will we be paying for this for years to come?.

I don't think for a minute that is correct as there are over 50 vaccines in development.

https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-vaccine-tracker

I think the UK have ordered six.

https://www.cityam.com/which-covid-vaccines-has-the-uk-government-ordered/

[jon1959]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Have you actually read that ? It's littered with references to the 1970's and 80's. The authors really are clutching at straws in trying to emphasise the UK's influence in Europe. It has been been waning for many, many years.

Yes I read it. Thanks for asking.

The UK was semi detached in the EU around a few issues but for most of the time of UK membership we were one of the big beasts in the union, a net contributor, and a major influence on evolving EU policy. I can't find the summary of EU policies that was posted and discussed on here a few years back - but it showed the UK voted for the vast majority of EU policies and laws. That didn't stop Brexiteers making out that the UK was constantly a victim of an alien organisation and 'they' were always doing things to 'us'. Wasn't true, but played very well to Little Englander sensibilities.

Anyway, we are out and will have to make the best of it. The Commission has cocked it up with vaccine procurement and the botched threat of Article 16, but that doesn't define the EU, the UK performance on Covid or the main costs or benefits of Brexit.

[xsnaggle]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Did Cameron fail? I thought we managed to make quite a difference during that stage?

Yes he failed in so much as he did not achieve all that he hoped to achieve. That is what instigated the initial promise to hold a referendum. If the EU had been more flexcible or giving none of this would have happened.

and of course there would be no vaccine fight because as part of the club Ukwould not have orderd their 100,0000,000 first so there would be no argument over the EU not getting enough, they'd have our allocation too.

[Vindec]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

The EU didn't only cock up in relation to Article 16; they also were mistaken in relation to contract law according to a Commercial lawyer. This is an extract from a very long article.

[I]While European ministers have publicly insisted that they are entitled to jabs under the terms of the AstraZeneca contract, Steven Barrett - a respected commercial lawyer with the Radcliffe Chambers - told MailOnline that it actually shows the opposite.

'The EU's public position is legally unsustainable, and they have made public comments that are demonstrably wrong,' he said.

Pulling apart the EU contract, Mr Barrett pointed to section 5.1 as the most damning, saying that it 'clearly shows' the company is only under a 'Best Reasonable Effort' clause to supply the EU - as boss Pascal Soriot has stated.

While section 5.4 does state that factories in the UK are considered to be part of the EU under the terms of the contract, he called this 'a distraction' that 'is not relevant to the EU's point'.

'This is actually a mildly embarrassing climbdown from the EU, who have a rule that all vaccines used in the EU have to be made in the EU.

'What they have done in that clause is say, for the purposes of this contract, the UK counts as the EU.' But, he added, it does not mean they are entitled to doses made in UK factories.] In addition, clause 6.2 of the contract states that 'competing agreements' signed by AstraZeneca might affect the supply of vaccines to the EU.

'They knew there would be competing agreements,' Mr Barrett said. 'Everyone in the world knew there would be competing agreements. They knew that might mean doses were delayed.

'I believe the EU is publicly asserting that it now has a right to jump the queue and take doses that belong to other people. That is expressly wrong,' he added.

[Moodybluebird]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Yes I read it. Thanks for asking.

The UK was semi detached in the EU around a few issues but for most of the time of UK membership we were one of the big beasts in the union, a net contributor, and a major influence on evolving EU policy. I can't find the summary of EU policies that was posted and discussed on here a few years back - but it showed the UK voted for the vast majority of EU policies and laws. That didn't stop Brexiteers making out that the UK was constantly a victim of an alien organisation and 'they' were always doing things to 'us'. Wasn't true, but played very well to Little Englander sensibilities.

Anyway, we are out and will have to make the best of it. The Commission has cocked it up with vaccine procurement and the botched threat of Article 16, but that doesn't define the EU, the UK performance on Covid or the main costs or benefits of Brexit.

A very well balanced response until your jibe about Little Englanders betrayed your true feelings to those UK citizens who did not share your point of view.

It's quite noticeable that most Brexiteers were/are critical of the EU but seldom of those people who opted to stay in the organisation. So why is it that some Remainers feel compelled to drag things down to a personal level and consistently pour scorn on in those that decided to leave ?

[xsnaggle]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

A very well balanced response until your jibe about Little Englanders betrayed your true feelings to those UK citizens who did not share your point of view.

It's quite noticeable that most Brexiteers were/are critical of the EU but seldom of those people who opted to stay in the organisation. So why is it that some Remainers feel compelled to drag things down to a personal level and consistently pour scorn on in those that decided to leave ?

They betray their own intolerance and ignorance by seeking to besmirch those that do not agree with them with the same qualities.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

A very well balanced response until your jibe about Little Englanders betrayed your true feelings to those UK citizens who did not share your point of view.

It's quite noticeable that most Brexiteers were/are critical of the EU but seldom of those people who opted to stay in the organisation. So why is it that some Remainers feel compelled to drag things down to a personal level and consistently pour scorn on in those that decided to leave ?

Are you taking the piss ?

The vitriol thrown at those that voted to leave was that many were lefty Liberal snowflake woke types

The country is split down the middle , quite literally with the vote , to suggest it is the brexit camp that gets all the slanging is daft

Anyway , get on with it as a contributor on here often says

I am off out to buy some frozen veg

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

Yes I read it. Thanks for asking.

The UK was semi detached in the EU around a few issues but for most of the time of UK membership we were one of the big beasts in the union, a net contributor, and a major influence on evolving EU policy. I can't find the summary of EU policies that was posted and discussed on here a few years back - but it showed the UK voted for the vast majority of EU policies and laws. That didn't stop Brexiteers making out that the UK was constantly a victim of an alien organisation and 'they' were always doing things to 'us'. Wasn't true, but played very well to Little Englander sensibilities.

Anyway, we are out and will have to make the best of it. The Commission has cocked it up with vaccine procurement and the botched threat of Article 16, but that doesn't define the EU, the UK performance on Covid or the main costs or benefits of Brexit.

bloody wishy washy Liberal

[jon1959]

Re: This Eu vaccine row

A very well balanced response until your jibe about Little Englanders betrayed your true feelings to those UK citizens who did not share your point of view.

It's quite noticeable that most Brexiteers were/are critical of the EU but seldom of those people who opted to stay in the organisation. So why is it that some Remainers feel compelled to drag things down to a personal level and consistently pour scorn on in those that decided to leave ?

I don't think all Brexit supporters are Little Englanders. Far from it. The Brexit supporters I know have more in common with Dennis Skinner than Jacob Rees-Mogg. I disagree (on balance) with them but in most cases respect them.

But I do think the narrative that the UK was held hostage in a hostile organisation - the one amplified by the Tory press for 30 years - is exactly pitched at Little Englander views and sensibilities. And yes, I feel nothing but scorn for the ERG, the rabid Tory press, and anyone who buys into that false and pathetic faux victimhood.