M25 Blocked in Both Directions

[JamesWales]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

Cheers, and I guess another concern I have is the general attitude that the government is encouraging (and acting out through legislation) is that protesting is some kind of subversive act. This is very dangerous in what is supposed to be a democracy and could well create the complete opposite of what they are hoping to achieve i.e. the very extreme subversive tactics they want to avoid.

It's too easy to think that environmental protesting is confined to things like the M25 protest (incidentally by a group I don't really know much about) but they're not. Here's an interesting piece that is heartbreaking.

Climate activists are being killed for trying to save our planet.

If environmental protesters are demonised through language and media/government attitude then the collective consciousness becomes one of 'these people are nutters' when they're not. In the article, there are major protests against some truly despicable corporations and regimes. There are governments who are using all the right terminology and ticking all the right boxes just to get funding in Foreign Aid and then pocketing the money in off-shore accounts.

It's so much more complicated than reducing it to the M25 blockades and we're already hearing about hefty prison sentences which implies their criminality is on a par with drug dealers or people traffickers.

I do a lot of writing of letters regarding disability rights and issues and advocating regarding discrimination. I've been on the receiving end of the government's demonisation of disabled people and it's really nasty. I don't want to see this happen to anyone protesting.

I'm not on here to fall out with anyone and I was actually saying to Mrs Citizen yesterday that I actually respect our good if heated discussion and our exchanges definitely fall into that category!

With respect, I dont think the government are doing that. What they are doing is balancing the right to protest with the rights of others to go about their business, lives and livlihoods.

The right to protest is sacrosanct, but you do it the right way.

Liberalism means taking account of and respecting the rights of all, not allowing one group to disproportionately impact upon another.

[Rjk]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

Except the UK has done better than most other countries in decarbonising and in terms of renewal energy production, particularly wind energy.

It's the narcissistic fanaticism of it, and disregard for other opinions. It will achieve nothing. They are better off encouraging a boycott of Chinese (and other high carbon country) products if they want to be radical.

There will always be more to do and always causes people care about but you cant just decide you want to disrupt everyones lives because of it.

I think china uses about 30% renewable energy these days, and is taking impressive steps to reduce their carbon output. Also the average carbon footprint per capita is lower than here.
Perhaps they should be boycotting us?

[life on mars]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

Come on, you're better than this. The woman suffering a stroke was going to anyway. The woman due a child was risking it going on the M25 in the first place. The M25 is the dog's breath of a motorway and is to be avoided at all costs. I've literally lost days of my life stuck on the M25 over my lifetime. Idiots driving like idiots cause more death and carnage than a few misguided but well-intentioned protesters.

FWIW I think these kinds of protests are doing more harm than good but I weighed in yesterday because of the cynical language and attitudes of many e.g. tree-huggers, narcissists, scum etc. which is just playing into the divide and conquer tactics of the media and governments who want to demonise environmental protesters.

Sometimes things are so important that it takes radical action to initiate change. This has been true throughout history, hence my references to some of the biggest protesters and movements who were also demonised by the establishments of the time.

It's the cynism that I can't abide. I have no problem with discussion and suggesting different ways of doing things but I can't stand the cheap shots or the flag-waving, patriots who think being 17th in some meaningless table of meaningless data actually has any meaning at all.

So yeah, I'll fight their corner when they're being ganged up on by a bunch of cynics. Sometimes I do it because I truly believe in the cause, and sometimes I do it because I don't like the name-calling.

Sorry its not a safe thing to do , and it will at some point result in death and again we are one of the better countries pushing the green agenda and have been for quite some time .

I'd love to see peoples reactions if they laid down on the M4 whilst families , workers ,emergencies are trying to do their best ,Im sure the same demonstrators will rock up at another cause anytime soon.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

With respect, I dont think the government are doing that. What they are doing is balancing the right to protest with the rights of others to go about their business, lives and livlihoods.

The right to protest is sacrosanct, but you do it the right way.

Liberalism means taking account of and respecting the rights of all, not allowing one group to disproportionately impact upon another.

With respect, I think your reply is a cop-out to everything I wrote and not how radical change has ever taken place. I think you've swallowed the party line. The Met has used extremely heavy-handed tactics on peaceful protesters in London for years. You or any government don't get to say what 'the right way to protest' is. You don't sound like you've ever been on the receiving end of prejudice or discrimination because if you had you wouldn't be so compliant and passive.

[Doucas]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

Let's be honest, nothing will be done about climate change until the older generations die off, many of them are in complete denial when it comes to anything scientists recommend.

I don't know if it's caused by a lifetime of murdoch media, lead paint or being the most economically privileged generation in the history of the planet but the boomers will be remembered as the most selfish generation ever.

Just get out of the way.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

Sorry its not a safe thing to do , and it will at some point result in death and again we are one of the better countries pushing the green agenda and have been for quite some time .

I'd love to see peoples reactions if they laid down on the M4 whilst families , workers ,emergencies are trying to do their best ,Im sure the same demonstrators will rock up at another cause anytime soon.

Of course, it's not a safe thing to do. Driving a car is not safe. There were 115,333 road deaths in 2020 (a reduction of 15% I think from 2109) so you've got to be really careful with your arguments when citing what's safe and what isn't. Does everyone criticising these protests drive rigidly within the speed limit and have constant regard as to other people's safety when driving a car? You can twist all these issues to suit a way of thinking but the reality is that 'what-ifs' are pointless. What-if stopping the traffic reduced the number of deaths on the M25 yesterday. See, pointless argument but plausible. What if having lockdowns and not driving cars ever again saved 115,333 people. See, pointless argument but plausible.

[JamesWales]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

Let's be honest, nothing will be done about climate change until the older generations die off, many of them are in complete denial when it comes to anything scientists recommend.

I don't know if it's caused by a lifetime of murdoch media, lead paint or being the most economically privileged generation in the history of the planet but the boomers will be remembered as the most selfish generation ever.

Just get out of the way.

What a load of borderline fascist nonsense.

[delmbox]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

What a load of borderline fascist nonsense.

How old are you out of interest JamesWales?

[JamesWales]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

With respect, I think your reply is a cop-out to everything I wrote and not how radical change has ever taken place. I think you've swallowed the party line. The Met has used extremely heavy-handed tactics on peaceful protesters in London for years. You or any government don't get to say what 'the right way to protest' is. You don't sound like you've ever been on the receiving end of prejudice or discrimination because if you had you wouldn't be so compliant and passive.

No, you are right. The government and police should do everything you want and to hell with anyone elses rights.

And you're also right, anyone who disagrees with you, quite obviously, has never suffered prejudice or discrimination.

And I'm not compliant or passive about much, believe me. I'm just a liberal who doesnt think the world should bow down to the demands of a small bunch of radicals

[Doucas]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

What a load of borderline fascist nonsense.

Typical boomer response, doesn't actually explain why it's nonsense, just says it's fascist and moves on.

[JamesWales]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

Typical boomer response, doesn't actually explain why it's nonsense, just says it's fascist and moves on.

It was nonsense because you made out that the 'boomer generation' (which precedes my parents out of interest) were somehow not environmentally friendly, when in practice they re-used products, were thriftier, ate more sustainably and holidayed more sustainably than future generations

It was borderline fascist, because, whilst you are presumably being light-hearted, you are willing the generation to die off and 'get out of the way'

The second level of nonsense kicks in when you assume that this means that something serious will happen about climate change, when in practice huge progress is happening now.

You insulting everyone who is old won't help climate change, it will just make people think you're a bit of a knob

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

No, you are right. The government and police should do everything you want and to hell with anyone elses rights.

And you're also right, anyone who disagrees with you, quite obviously, has never suffered prejudice or discrimination.

And I'm not compliant or passive about much, believe me. I'm just a liberal who doesnt think the world should bow down to the demands of a small bunch of radicals

That's weak and you've gone back to 'angry-from-Tunbridge-Wells-mode' but we come full circle....your grievances are exactly the same ones used against Mandela, King and Ghandi. It's as if you're really trying not to admit you could be wrong.

[JamesWales]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

That's weak and you've gone back to 'angry-from-Tunbridge-Wells-mode' but we come full circle....your grievances are exactly the same ones used against Mandela, King and Ghandi. It's as if you're really trying not to admit you could be wrong.

FFS

There you go again, comparing the protesters on the M25 blocking people going about their business to Nelson Mandela imprisoned by a racist state apparatus.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

FFS

There you go again, comparing the protesters on the M25 blocking people going about their business to Nelson Mandela imprisoned by a racist state apparatus.

That's exactly what I'm not doing though but brace yourself because this next bit's gonna hurt. I'm comparing you with the people who demonised Nelson Mandela et al for being radical and protesting in the first place. Unless, of course, he did it the right way, then you'd be all smug. You don't see it yet. But you will. You're on the wrong side of history. So your juvenile head-slapping grinning emojis is all you have.

[JamesWales]

Re: M25 Blocked in Both Directions

That's exactly what I'm not doing though but brace yourself because this next bit's gonna hurt. I'm comparing you with the people who demonised Nelson Mandela et al for being radical and protesting in the first place. Unless, of course, he did it the right way, then you'd be all smug. You don't see it yet. But you will. You're on the wrong side of history. So your juvenile head-slapping grinning emojis is all you have.

You are quite something.

Earlier on, you yourself wrote:

"FWIW I think these kinds of protests are doing more harm than good"

Personally, I think addressing climate change is critical and within that, properly insulating homes is a big win.

However, this protest won't help, as you acknowledged yourself an hour or so ago. But now, because I object to people doing unreasonable and dangerous protests I am somehow in support of the South African apartheid government? wtf like!

Your logic is whack, but it doesn't seem like reason is your thing.

Go and ruin someone day on the M4 if you feel strongly about it. Telling me I want to imprison Nelson Mandela isn't helping until such a time that we can harness hot air generated from messageboards.