40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I'm sure this will be controversial for many and whilst I wouldn't presume to speak for Sludge I think a suggestion on the conflict might tie in to his general thoughts on the issue.

There's no doubt this conflict knows no bounds and will run and run and run. How long in time and how many innocents will be killed and maimed before a political settlement will be achieved to end the cycle of suffering? Many people cannot see that horizon because it's much too far away.

Although an eye for an eye is rooted in the psyche of nearly all humans as a rational reaction to attack I wonder if in this instance Israel would be better advised to spare any more human suffering and resist retaliation?

I think if they followed this course of non retaliatory violence Israel would likely gain kudos and probably gain much more support for their cause than hitherto.

What exactly will exacting violent punishment achieve? It certainly won't act as a deterrent because it will inevitably lead to more conflict and, incidentally probably increase support for the Palestinian people.

This may be an opportunity for Israel to lay the foundations for a peaceful settlement by gaining the moral high ground and resisting the shrill calls to exact revenge.

Pulling back from a mass ground attack would be the most appropriate and sensible move

But there are too many fanatics in the government that will make it happen and of course the general Israeli population who in so many cases will understandly want action ......even if the world knows that will make things far worse

It would be a step forward if Israel stepped back but the chances of that happening are zero I would imagine

[pipster]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I would say the chance of no retaliation is about zero. And I cant think of any situation where that has happened. There is certainly a bigger picture esp re Saudi Arabia. Not sure why Hamas would think doing this would lead to more peace, unless they obviously want to start a new war in the region.
If neither side will ever accept the other, or accept a situation that allows peace - then they will always fight. The non rational argument is - let them get on with - whoever wins - 'wins' - but in reality that would start ww3.
What happens next ? - more death and violence seems inevitable.
Looking at some of the footage - Hamas terrorists - are they all Palestinian ? or do they recruit from Africa?

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I'm sure this will be controversial for many and whilst I wouldn't presume to speak for Sludge I think a suggestion on the conflict might tie in to his general thoughts on the issue.

There's no doubt this conflict knows no bounds and will run and run and run. How long in time and how many innocents will be killed and maimed before a political settlement will be achieved to end the cycle of suffering? Many people cannot see that horizon because it's much too far away.

Although an eye for an eye is rooted in the psyche of nearly all humans as a rational reaction to attack I wonder if in this instance Israel would be better advised to spare any more human suffering and resist retaliation?

I think if they followed this course of non retaliatory violence Israel would likely gain kudos and probably gain much more support for their cause than hitherto.

What exactly will exacting violent punishment achieve? It certainly won't act as a deterrent because it will inevitably lead to more conflict and, incidentally probably increase support for the Palestinian people.

This may be an opportunity for Israel to lay the foundations for a peaceful settlement by gaining the moral high ground and resisting the shrill calls to exact revenge.

You are right of course, and that goes for any conflict really, but we all know it won't happen unfortunately.

The best hope is for no wild escalation

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I think the subject of the thread is far more important that the usual descent of Punch and Judy left v right spats between the usual parties on here.

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

There's absolutely no chance of this conflict ever being resolved I am afraid

No chance

I don't know why you always come out with this 'there is no hope and no solution' view Sludge. You do it all the time and with all sorts of issues - from anti-Tory electoral pacts to climate change to global conflicts. I don't understand why you are so pessimistic and defeatist. There is always hope.

Israel/Palestine is certainly one of the biggest and most difficult conflicts - over 75 years old and now more entrenched than ever - but the same things were said about South Africa and Ireland.

There is a will for peace amongst many Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs and Palestinians from the occupied territories. As you said in your post there are brave, committed and non-sectarian people across the divide. That is positive. There also has to be leadership within the Israeli state and from the Palestinian side - not an endless cycle of oppression, rage, provocation and reaction. There is little sign of that at the moment - but even a corrupt thug like Netanyahu could be drawn into a new peace process if he thought it was inevitable or in his own best interests (not so many of his far right, racist, government partners) as happened with South Africa, and even vilified and isolated Hamas has leading members who have made back channel contacts with the Israelis to begin a new peace process as recently as 2018.

I have no idea where a new process will begin - beyond Egypt and Qatar trying to create a short-term truce. Most of the world (including the UN, EU and other regional organisations) claim to support a two state solution, whilst standing by while that option has been dismantled by creeping annexation over the past 20 odd years. Israel gets a diplomatic, economic and military free pass whatever it does in defiance of international law and conventions. Hamas, a product of the occupation, poses as the defender of Palestinians when no one else gives a toss - but ends up using civilians as pawns in a desperate high-stakes game. Yet there is opposition to the current Israeli government in Israel and there is a new generation of Palestinian activists who reject both Hamas (violent Islamists) and the Palestinian Authority (who make big statements but act like the puny agents of the Israeli state on the West Bank - like a Vichy regime).

It won't be easy and it won't be quick but I believe there are enough elements of a solution out there for a settlement to emerge. Not a biblical Jewish supremacist apartheid state that has annexed the West Bank and Gaza and expelled the remaining indigenous people. Not the obliteration of an Israeli state that has existed and created its own roots and history over 75 years. But a compromise that most can live with. Ideally it would be a single democratic state with equal rights for all citizens - but more likely a new partition (creating a viable Palestinian state) where there would be another round of losers (land and citizenship) but a long term internationally guaranteed deal that can be established and protected over the next three generations - with some joint institutions (as in Ireland) and a reconciliation process once the time is right (as in South Africa).

[life on mars]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

If I was Israel I'd just go for it big time . Innocent folk should give Hamas up , they know who they are disgusting bunch of Iranian back terrorists.

They don't want peace they'd miss the funding.

Sludge I'd right it will never end as they all want Israel pushed into the sea ( Iranian quote ).

Where is Jezzer?

[ninian opinian]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Israel's Defence Minister orders "complete siege" of Gaza Strip: "No electricity, no food, no fuel"

Two million people live in Gaza, half are children. What an awful, awful situation.

[Dorcus]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

If I was Israel I'd just go for it big time . Innocent folk should give Hamas up , they know who they are disgusting bunch of Iranian back terrorists.

They don't want peace they'd miss the funding.

Sludge I'd right it will never end as they all want Israel pushed into the sea ( Iranian quote ).

Where is Jezzer?

And here we have the root of the problem. With people like this around look forward to endless carnage on both sides.

[ninian opinian]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

And here we have the root of the problem. With people like this around look forward to endless carnage on both sides.

This brutal attack on Palestinians on 6th April 2023 https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-relea...al-aqsa-mosque

Both sides are culpable.

And people like LOM cheer it on and has the audacity to criticise Corbyn. There will never be peace and innocent civilians will continue to die and suffer.

[Dorcus]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

This brutal attack on Palestinians on 6th April 2023 https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-relea...al-aqsa-mosque

Both sides are culpable.

And people like LOM cheer it on and has the audacity to criticise Corbyn. There will never be peace and innocent civilians will continue to die and suffer.

Exactly, it's never those high up in the echelon who lose their lives; the perpetrators of the mayhem get away scott free on both sides. The people who will continue to suffer are just innocent pawns in the conflict. By the way, which conflict has ever been any different?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I don't know why you always come out with this 'there is no hope and no solution' view Sludge. You do it all the time and with all sorts of issues - from anti-Tory electoral pacts to climate change to global conflicts. I don't understand why you are so pessimistic and defeatist. There is always hope.

Israel/Palestine is certainly one of the biggest and most difficult conflicts - over 75 years old and now more entrenched than ever - but the same things were said about South Africa and Ireland.

There is a will for peace amongst many Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs and Palestinians from the occupied territories. As you said in your post there are brave, committed and non-sectarian people across the divide. That is positive. There also has to be leadership within the Israeli state and from the Palestinian side - not an endless cycle of oppression, rage, provocation and reaction. There is little sign of that at the moment - but even a corrupt thug like Netanyahu could be drawn into a new peace process if he thought it was inevitable or in his own best interests (not so many of his far right, racist, government partners) as happened with South Africa, and even vilified and isolated Hamas has leading members who have made back channel contacts with the Israelis to begin a new peace process as recently as 2018.

I have no idea where a new process will begin - beyond Egypt and Qatar trying to create a short-term truce. Most of the world (including the UN, EU and other regional organisations) claim to support a two state solution, whilst standing by while that option has been dismantled by creeping annexation over the past 20 odd years. Israel gets a diplomatic, economic and military free pass whatever it does in defiance of international law and conventions. Hamas, a product of the occupation, poses as the defender of Palestinians when no one else gives a toss - but ends up using civilians as pawns in a desperate high-stakes game. Yet there is opposition to the current Israeli government in Israel and there is a new generation of Palestinian activists who reject both Hamas (violent Islamists) and the Palestinian Authority (who make big statements but act like the puny agents of the Israeli state on the West Bank - like a Vichy regime).

It won't be easy and it won't be quick but I believe there are enough elements of a solution out there for a settlement to emerge. Not a biblical Jewish supremacist apartheid state that has annexed the West Bank and Gaza and expelled the remaining indigenous people. Not the obliteration of an Israeli state that has existed and created its own roots and history over 75 years. But a compromise that most can live with. Ideally it would be a single democratic state with equal rights for all citizens - but more likely a new partition (creating a viable Palestinian state) where there would be another round of losers (land and citizenship) but a long term internationally guaranteed deal that can be established and protected over the next three generations - with some joint institutions (as in Ireland) and a reconciliation process once the time is right (as in South Africa).

I wish I shared your optimism

I think you are hoping for a settlement and I share that hope

But I think in 200 years they will still be at each other

Of course it's not every Arab and every Jew but its more than enough

" we are fighting animals and we have to act accordingly "

That's an Israeli government spokesman , its clear the whole of the gaza strip is seen as the enemy

As I said , I don't share your optimism

[pipster]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Having just watched Hamas release their 4k hi definition camera footage of them executing people - they are effectively now ISIS.

I have just seen the Pro Palestine march outside the Labour party conference today. Not affilliated to Labour but the 'activists' on that march looked the usual rent a mob crowd etc. After what just happened on Saturday - you would think they'd call it off. Interesting interview from Margaret Hodge on LBC today
"Today is not a good day for anti semitism"

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Israel's Defence Minister orders "complete siege" of Gaza Strip: "No electricity, no food, no fuel"

Two million people live in Gaza, half are children. What an awful, awful situation.

The idea of self defence is being supported when in reality this will be a complete invasion and slaughter

The international peace makers should be in there but that's never going to happen

[ninian opinian]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Having just watched Hamas release their 4k hi definition camera footage of them executing people - they are effectively now ISIS.

I have just seen the Pro Palestine march outside the Labour party conference today. Not affilliated to Labour but the 'activists' on that march looked the usual rent a mob crowd etc. After what just happened on Saturday - you would think they'd call it off. Interesting interview from Margaret Hodge on LBC today
"Today is not a good day for anti semitism"

If the atrocities had happened last week then they would have been demonstrating outside the Tory conference too. You are conflating antisemitism with support for the Palestinian people. It’s not the same thing.

[ninian opinian]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

The human cost for 2008 to 2023. Palestinian deaths 6407, Israeli deaths 308. At least 15,560 Palestinian and 6,308 Israelis were injured. Does not include the latest atrocities.

Each one a human being, a mother a father, a brother a sister. Absolutely heartbreaking for both sides.