40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I can't see how Biden wins. Ironically the US economy is doing relatively well, although I don't think most feel it on the ground.

I guess the big unknown is the court cases with Trump, which I have to say I have only a passing interest in, which is bizarre really.

I'd vote Trump over Biden, although I have no doubt in my mind that Biden is a better person on nearly every level.

[stevo]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

So, why would you vote Trump?

[Eric Cartman]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I can't see how Biden wins. Ironically the US economy is doing relatively well, although I don't think most feel it on the ground.

I guess the big unknown is the court cases with Trump, which I have to say I have only a passing interest in, which is bizarre really.

I'd vote Trump over Biden, although I have no doubt in my mind that Biden is a better person on nearly every level.

As much as I hate to be naive and waste my vote, I don't see how I could vote for either. Neither should be leading the most influential country in the world for different reasons.

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

As much as I hate to be naive and waste my vote, I don't see how I could vote for either. Neither should be leading the most influential country in the world for different reasons.

Once upon a time Biden's greatest crime was plagiarising Neil Kinnock!

I struggle to get my head around the US presidential elections system (the Belgian play-off rules are much easier!). But although both Trump and Biden are Party affiliated, it seems the individual counts way more than in a parliamentary system like ours where the winning party's leader (if in parliament) becomes the PM.

Shame then that the third party candidates stand no chance of breaking into the duopoly.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/04/29/us/politics/presidential-candidates-third-party-independent.html

Cornell West or Jill Stein (Green Party) would be worthy of a vote. But it must be Ross Perot who was the last third party candidate to make an impact?

[the other bob wilson]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

It looks as if Biden will pay a price in the election. Well written opinion piece here:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/21/biden-gaza-2024-election

Biden is in no way guaranteed re-election, and all available information suggests that the contest will be close. Donald Trump has been narrowly but consistently ahead in national polls. A new dataset released by the New York Times on 13 May found that Biden was trailing in five key swing states – Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada and Pennsylvania – and suffering from disillusionment among young voters as well as Black and Latino ones.

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What’s driving this discontent among young voters and voters of color – those cornerstones of Biden’s coalition that were so key to his 2020 victory over Trump in places like Michigan and Pennsylvania? There are several factors, but one issue remains consistent in these voters’ accounts of their dissatisfaction with Biden: his handling of Israel’s assault on Gaza.

The indiscriminate bombing and civilian massacres that have accompanied Israel’s assault on Palestinians are a moral catastrophe that has shaken many Americans’ souls. The United Nations now estimates that more than 35,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel since the start of the fighting. Since many human bodies are buried beneath the rubble of Gaza’s bombed homes, schools and hospitals, that number is likely to be a significant undercount. The dead are mostly women and children; those men who have died are also overwhelmingly non-combatants. More than 1,000 children in Gaza have lost limbs to Israel’s war of revenge.

If that figure cannot shake you into moral recognition, consider that many of those children have endured their amputations without anesthesia, since medicine – like food – has largely been prohibited from being delivered to Gaza by Israeli authorities. More than 75% of Gaza’s population is now displaced, according to the UN; they have left homes, worlds, entire lives that they will never be able to retrieve. More than 1.5 million people are now sheltering in Rafah, the strip’s southernmost city, which Israel is currently bombing and is poised to invade. Many human rights advocates and experts in international law have described Israel’s actions against Gazans as genocide. The death toll will keep climbing.

Many voters believe, with good reason, that none of this would have happened without Biden’s assent. Biden has continued to speak of Israel’s attack on Palestinian civilians using the absurd language of “self-defense”. He has insulted Jewish Americans and the memory of the Holocaust by invoking them to justify the slaughter. And though his White House repeatedly leaks that he is “privately” dismayed by Israel’s conduct of the war, he has done little to stop the flow of US money and guns that support it.

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Biden’s supporters are quick to point out that the alternative to Biden’s re-election will be dramatically worse, both for Americans domestically, and for those Palestinians who suffer as a result of US policy. And they are right. Biden supporters are right, too, that voting is a binary choice, between the options available. And they are right that abstaining from voting hastens a statistically likely Trump victory.

But these lesser-of-two-evils argument do not lessen the tax on the conscience that many anti-war Americans will feel when they consider whether to vote for Biden in spite of his support for the genocide in Gaza. And they are certainly not justifications for Biden’s continued aid to Israel’s war project. Rather, the extreme dangers of a second Trump presidency are all the more cause for Biden to abandon this support, and to align himself with the moral cause championed by the voters he needs.

That’s a good article. I can’t think of an issue in which all four of the main parties on both sides of the Atlantic have been so out of touch with mainstream public thinking. I’d say it’s safe now to deduce that a pretty large majority of the public in the USA and the countries of Western Europe are against Israel’s retaliation to what happened on 7 October - it went well beyond “self defence” months ago.

I find the idea of a second Trump presidency horrifying and have always said I’d be a very reluctant Biden voter if I was American, but it’s reached the stage now where I honestly don’t know if I could vote for him - Biden v Trump makes Sunak v Starmer look like a battle of political giants by comparison!

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

So, why would you vote Trump?

Not sure really. I have just come to find the liberal left very annoying and dishonest. But Trump himself is very dishonest too.

I have a friend in Minneapolis too. He was quite anti Trump but he said the other week the sheer number of homeless and level of immigration just cannot be remotely sustained.

I think the neo liberal age is coming to an end. If the Left are wise they will benefit from it.

[stevo]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Anyone hear that spokesperson for the Israeli government (Abu Hyman) on Radio 4 today? When being interviewed by Sarah Montague, he denied there was any famine or starvation in Gaza and that the UN and various aid agencies were lying, claiming they had been infiltrated by Hamas.

[Jordi Culé]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Not sure really. I have just come to find the liberal left very annoying and dishonest. But Trump himself is very dishonest too.

That's quite 'a take' James.

Annoying woke lefties versus an authoritarian, who tried to overturn a democratic election and then incited an insurrection in an attempt to remain in power.

I'm not up to date with the dishonesty on both sides though so happily will be put right.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

That's quite 'a take' James.

Annoying woke lefties versus an authoritarian, who tried to overturn a democratic election and then incited an insurrection in an attempt to remain in power.

I'm not up to date with the dishonesty on both sides though so happily will be put right.

The notion that the American Democratic Party is run by woke lefties is an interesting one as well.

[Jordi Culé]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

The notion that the American Democratic Party is run by woke lefties is an interesting one as well.

Don't all 'woke lefties' arm Israel?

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

That's quite 'a take' James.

Annoying woke lefties versus an authoritarian, who tried to overturn a democratic election and then incited an insurrection in an attempt to remain in power.

I'm not up to date with the dishonesty on both sides though so happily will be put right.

Well I never called them "woke lefties" did I? Although you have demonstrated one of those annoying traits there; taking what someone said, not really listened, mocked it and misrepresented it. Usually it takes the tone of "I don't believe in open borders" being misrepresented as someone being labelled racist, so this is a new take!

[the other bob wilson]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Well I never called them "woke lefties" did I? Although you have demonstrated one of those annoying traits there; taking what someone said, not really listened, mocked it and misrepresented it. Usually it takes the tone of "I don't believe in open borders" being misrepresented as someone being labelled racist, so this is a new take!

What’s the liberal left (your words) if it isn’t meant to signal woke lefties?

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

What’s the liberal left (your words) if it isn’t meant to signal woke lefties?

Well they are just two different terms with different connotations. Like if I called you 'left-wing' or called you a 'leftard' it can be interpreted differently. I try not to use the word woke much as it gets misinterpreted.

That said, I appreciate the similarities. But I would say the liberal left is a more established term. It can be used to describe things perhaps back to the 60s in America, certainly to Blair's time here. Wokeism, whatever the **** it is, is far more modern.

And aside from anything else, woke people aren't really liberals. In my experience they are just about the least tolerant people you will meet if you don't subscribe to their world view.

So, different things 👍

[Jordi Culé]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Well I never called them "woke lefties" did I? Although you have demonstrated one of those annoying traits there; taking what someone said, not really listened, mocked it and misrepresented it. Usually it takes the tone of "I don't believe in open borders" being misrepresented as someone being labelled racist, so this is a new take!

Have a puff on your inhaler buddy. I didn't mean to bring on a cardiac.

I wasn't having a dig at you per se just thought it was surprising comparison?

You could've just said all politicians tell fibs.

Now if you could point out the liberal left fibs in comparison to Trumps, I'd be grateful and I can put away the defibrillator.

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Have a puff on your inhaler buddy. I didn't mean to bring on a cardiac.

I wasn't having a dig at you per se just thought it was surprising comparison?

You could've just said all politicians tell fibs.

Now if you could point out the liberal left fibs in comparison to Trumps, I'd be grateful and I can put away the defibrillator.

Ha, I think we have both been around the block long enough to know that was not a cardiac inducing response from me! Pretty reasoned explanation I thought!

I think the liberal left is very dishonest about things like the realities of immigration, social issues, racism and the like, but it's like a church admitting their doctrines are wrong. It will take them a long time to realise. I also thing they are pretty hypocritical, but all of this goes for all sides. I don't like the way they often think they are better than others.

I dunno Jordi..Trump will likely win. Millions will vote for him. Why do you think they will?