40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

[chrisp_1927]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I don't know why you always come out with this 'there is no hope and no solution' view Sludge. You do it all the time and with all sorts of issues - from anti-Tory electoral pacts to climate change to global conflicts. I don't understand why you are so pessimistic and defeatist. There is always hope.

Israel/Palestine is certainly one of the biggest and most difficult conflicts - over 75 years old and now more entrenched than ever - but the same things were said about South Africa and Ireland.

There is a will for peace amongst many Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs and Palestinians from the occupied territories. As you said in your post there are brave, committed and non-sectarian people across the divide. That is positive. There also has to be leadership within the Israeli state and from the Palestinian side - not an endless cycle of oppression, rage, provocation and reaction. There is little sign of that at the moment - but even a corrupt thug like Netanyahu could be drawn into a new peace process if he thought it was inevitable or in his own best interests (not so many of his far right, racist, government partners) as happened with South Africa, and even vilified and isolated Hamas has leading members who have made back channel contacts with the Israelis to begin a new peace process as recently as 2018.

I have no idea where a new process will begin - beyond Egypt and Qatar trying to create a short-term truce. Most of the world (including the UN, EU and other regional organisations) claim to support a two state solution, whilst standing by while that option has been dismantled by creeping annexation over the past 20 odd years. Israel gets a diplomatic, economic and military free pass whatever it does in defiance of international law and conventions. Hamas, a product of the occupation, poses as the defender of Palestinians when no one else gives a toss - but ends up using civilians as pawns in a desperate high-stakes game. Yet there is opposition to the current Israeli government in Israel and there is a new generation of Palestinian activists who reject both Hamas (violent Islamists) and the Palestinian Authority (who make big statements but act like the puny agents of the Israeli state on the West Bank - like a Vichy regime).

It won't be easy and it won't be quick but I believe there are enough elements of a solution out there for a settlement to emerge. Not a biblical Jewish supremacist apartheid state that has annexed the West Bank and Gaza and expelled the remaining indigenous people. Not the obliteration of an Israeli state that has existed and created its own roots and history over 75 years. But a compromise that most can live with. Ideally it would be a single democratic state with equal rights for all citizens - but more likely a new partition (creating a viable Palestinian state) where there would be another round of losers (land and citizenship) but a long term internationally guaranteed deal that can be established and protected over the next three generations - with some joint institutions (as in Ireland) and a reconciliation process once the time is right (as in South Africa).

Interestingly the Oslo accords were 30 years ago now. A beginning of a roadmap for peace was set. Netanyahu killed it with vitriolic rhetoric that played a big part in the Israeli pm being killed by a Jewish extremist. Hamas killed it with suicide bombs.

But at the time it was signed the vast majority of both Israeli and Palestinian populations supported it. The sad thing is, those poisonous b*stards who ruined the peace process are still around on both sides. But as you say, there is definitely hope. If they managed to get close before there's no reason they can't get further in the future. I just hope it's sooner rather than later, before too many more have to die

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Tel Aviv still is to be fair, as is much of the heavily populated gush Dan conurbation it sits in. The loons tend to be in the settlements and Jerusalem. I do think there tends to be one major difference between the Tel Aviv type Israeli liberals and certain other progressives around the world though, that's that the Israeli progressives realise that the actions of the Israeli right are wrong and cause a lot of hatred and a lot of the problems, BUT, also that many in the countries around hate them purely for being Jews, and that if Israel retreats to the pre 1967 borders those people will still hate them just for being Jews. Too many so called progressives in the rest of the world seem to be able to see what Israel does wrong, but never want to challenge the attitudes towards Israel/Jews.

I'm all for a 2 state solution, it's the only choice surely. But I don't think for a minute it would stop attacks from the likes of Hamas

A friend went to tel aviv at the end of the summer

Liberal , Jews and Arabs and plenty of other cultures mixing , a big vibrant cosmopolitan city

What a mess it's all going to be now

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Interestingly the Oslo accords were 30 years ago now. A beginning of a roadmap for peace was set. Netanyahu killed it with vitriolic rhetoric that played a big part in the Israeli pm being killed by a Jewish extremist. Hamas killed it with suicide bombs.

But at the time it was signed the vast majority of both Israeli and Palestinian populations supported it. The sad thing is, those poisonous b*stards who ruined the peace process are still around on both sides. But as you say, there is definitely hope. If they managed to get close before there's no reason they can't get further in the future. I just hope it's sooner rather than later, before too many more have to die

I remember the Israeli pm funeral after his murder by the zionist and his wife turning herself away from Netanyahu as he went past her at the service as she refused to greet him

He's lucky she didn't smack him one , he had some front turning up to that

[chrisp_1927]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

A friend went to tel aviv at the end of the summer

Liberal , Jews and Arabs and plenty of other cultures mixing , a big vibrant cosmopolitan city

What a mess it's all going to be now

It's one of my very favourite places, vibrant and cosmopolitan as you say. Also home to great universities and scientific research and a huge tech scene. A great advert for what happens when religion takes a back seat and enjoying life takes precedence.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

It's one of my very favourite places, vibrant and cosmopolitan as you say. Also home to great universities and scientific research and a huge tech scene. A great advert for what happens when religion takes a back seat and enjoying life takes precedence.

I didnt realise how big it is , it's not major European city size but over half a million and the metro area

Great climate , great food from all over the world

And right by the beach 🏖

[Rjk]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

such a horrendous situation there, and difficult to see how it can ever improve.

I don't think a 1 state or a 2 state solution are viable these days

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

such a horrendous situation there, and difficult to see how it can ever improve.

I don't think a 1 state or a 2 state solution are viable these days

A 2 state solution is the stated aim of most countries and international bodies. Netanyahu has consistently rejected it - although it was the official policy objective of Israeli governments before him after Oslo.

But a 2 state solution - whatever the pros and cons - cannot happen when land is steadily being taken from the Palestinians and what is left to them is deprived of power, water and access, and fragmented like South African 'bantustans'.

Making a 2 state solution impossible is current Israeli policy.

A 1 state solution is very possible. Not a single 'liberal democracy' with equal rights for all citizens, but an ethno-religious state based on Jewish supremacy and the final expulsion of the non-Jewish Arab indigenous people (or continuing restrictions, persecution and expropriation until the majority flee or die). That is the current direction of travel. It is the main factor behind the cycle of violence.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

A 2 state solution is the stated aim of most countries and international bodies. Netanyahu has consistently rejected it - although it was the official policy objective of Israeli governments before him after Oslo.

But a 2 state solution - whatever the pros and cons - cannot happen when land is steadily being taken from the Palestinians and what is left to them is deprived of power, water and access, and fragmented like South African 'bantustans'.

Making a 2 state solution impossible is current Israeli policy.

A 1 state solution is very possible. Not a single 'liberal democracy' with equal rights for all citizens, but an ethno-religious state based on Jewish supremacy and the final expulsion of the non-Jewish Arab indigenous people (or continuing restrictions, persecution and expropriation until the majority flee or die). That is the current direction of travel. It is the main factor behind the cycle of violence.

When it is all laid bare as above by you and you see the Israeli politicians out for blood on the news today then you can see optimism and faith for a resolution is non existent for many

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

A small football related bit of news.

Celtic have condemned their own fans. It was a quite extraordinary display to follow the massacre of people at a music festival.

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/23844418.celtic-condemn-green-brigade-banners-support-palestine/

[Tuerto]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

A small football related bit of news.

Celtic have condemned their own fans. It was a quite extraordinary display to follow the massacre of people at a music festival.

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport...ort-palestine/

There's always Palestinian flags at Celtic games, this isn't a one off.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

This conflict is never going to end if the comments of Margaret Hodge against Owen Jones on Sky News are anything to go by

Both she and he have their fans and their doubters but as soon as Owen Jones mentioned the desperate plight of the Palestinians and the war hungry cries from some in the Israel government she behaved like a petulant child

He's clearly far left in his politics but she said that he was against Israel defending itself .......and made a point of this several times .....when he didn't say that at all and that any sort of invasion will prolong the slim chance of any lasting peace

Wether hes right or wrong she was completely without a pair of ears and if a senior politican in the UK is as one eyed then its all curtains as far as I can see

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

There's always Palestinian flags at Celtic games, this isn't a one off.

There is, but there isn't normally banners and texts in support of the resistance displayed. Timing and context matters.

Hence why Celtic FC have strongly condemned them.

I think it's awful after what happened earlier that day. I suspect if they knew the full story of events even they wouldn't have done it.

[Tuerto]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

There is, but there isn't normally banners and texts in support of the resistance displayed. Timing and context matters.

Hence why Celtic FC have strongly condemned them.

I think it's awful after what happened earlier that day. I suspect if they knew the full story of events even they wouldn't have done it.

There is banners and text at games supporting the people of Palestine, this isn't new. The Green Brigade actively and openly support Palestine at every home game. I can't see a problem with it.

[JamesWales]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

There is banners and text at games supporting the people of Palestine, this isn't new. The Green Brigade actively and openly support Palestine at every home game. I can't see a problem with it.

It's in very bad taste. You do see the odd Palestinian flag, that's true, but this was different and rightly condemned by the club. Celtic have form for this kinda thing and I think the Green Brigade are embarrassing the club.

https://www.celticfc.com/news/2023/october/09/club-statement/

[Tuerto]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

It's in very bad taste. You do see the odd Palestinian flag, that's true, but this was different and rightly condemned by the club. Celtic have form for this kinda thing and I think the Green Brigade are embarrassing the club.

https://www.celticfc.com/news/2023/o...lub-statement/

Depends how you look at it. Celtic the football club was borne from Imperialist colonial rule, borne out of oppression and famine. They support Palestine due to historic connections.