Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Politics is horrible really.

I do think that most people want what’s best for society...it’s just been ramped up to such a stage that it’s just toxic.

I’ve certainly contributed to toxicity on here, try my best not to offer a contrarian position or one that will upset someone.
But then suddenly my ire cannot be pacified, I post my opinion in a prickish way....and while I may feel good about it for a short while, I ultimately I regret it.

I think my point here is that nuances, respectful disagreements and finer points are foregone online in favour of a one size “Fitz Hall” my side against yours.

Ultimately, when things are really partisan no one wins.
We are seeing it more and more now and it’s sad.

this is spot on. consensus politics is far better than the partisan crap we are served up daily. Perhaps if we had PR rather than FPTP this would not be the case.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

perhaps, but traditional conservatism is about those very things, and whilst the blue corner today may not be a fully paid up member, its about as good as we have hence why some people with conservative values still vote for the blues.

And here's an example of modern conservatism of the sort Eric Cartman was referring to, it's not a good luck and, in this case especially given the person's background, "greed" seems a more appropriate word to use than selfishness.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/greensill-lobbying-leaves-reputation-tatters-david-cameron

Clearly, out of the people who vote, there are more who vote Conservative than for any other party, but, even in a landslide, there are more who vote against them than for them - throw in those who did not vote in 2019 and the Conservatives don't look as impregnable as they currently seem. The trouble is there is no credible opposition to the Conservatives in terms of forming a possible UK Government with the party best placed to do so, Labour, showing yet again that they appear to place greater emphasis on internal disputes than they do in trying to represent the tens of millions who do not want this Government.

Sludge started this thread calling for a new left of centre party to, essentially, replace Labour, but, I'd rather see an anti Conservative coalition fight the Tories at the next election. The Greens and Lib Dems have some experience where one of their candidates stood aside to give the one with the better chance of winning more of an opportunity, but Labour and the Nationalist parties would have to join in for it to stand any chance of succeeding and I guess that's where the problems start - as someone who was fully persuaded as to the need for some sort of proportional representation at the time of the 2011 referendum, I believe more than ever that a huge opportunity to rid the country of the sort of politics we've seen since then was lost.

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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

And here's an example of modern conservatism of the sort Eric Cartman was referring to, it's not a good luck and, in this case especially given the person's background, "greed" seems a more appropriate word to use than selfishness.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/greensill-lobbying-leaves-reputation-tatters-david-cameron

Clearly, out of the people who vote, there are more who vote Conservative than for any other party, but, even in a landslide, there are more who vote against them than for them - throw in those who did not vote in 2019 and the Conservatives don't look as impregnable as they currently seem. The trouble is there is no credible opposition to the Conservatives in terms of forming a possible UK Government with the party best placed to do so, Labour, showing yet again that they appear to place greater emphasis on internal disputes than they do in trying to represent the tens of millions who do not want this Government.

Sludge started this thread calling for a new left of centre party to, essentially, replace Labour, but, I'd rather see an anti Conservative coalition fight the Tories at the next election. The Greens and Lib Dems have some experience where one of their candidates stood aside to give the one with the better chance of winning more of an opportunity, but Labour and the Nationalist parties would have to join in for it to stand any chance of succeeding and I guess that's where the problems start - as someone who was fully persuaded as to the need for some sort of proportional representation at the time of the 2011 referendum, I believe more than ever that a huge opportunity to rid the country of the sort of politics we've seen since then was lost.

David Cameron won't be the first ex-PM to use that position to line his own pockets after office and he won't be the last. Cameron is a bum fluff beginner compared to Blair and Brown in this respect, but then I'm not against former PM's making money after public service. After all, they took a job where the pay really is not commensurate with the position and responsibility. The article is mere petty politicking, and serves no purpose other than Tory bashing. It adds nothing to the political debate although the anti Tories such as yourself lap it up as somehow being relevant. It is not.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

not its not, its called a point of view.

how many times do you see left wing posters on here refer to the right as evil, nasty, selfish. ditto the right wingers calling the left workshy, scroungers, lazy

neither are true, but you will believe it to be the case if you are firmly entrenched in one camp or the other.

The whole left and right stance originated in 1789 and is subjective, old, and tedious. Something is either true or false. This can't happen under conservatism or any other political dogma/ideology. That's just logic. That's not a point of view.

What you're doing though is exactly the same thing as you're espousing to ridicule. You're doing it to me in every reply, along with a huge dose of assumption and presumption. The internet's so-called argument of 'it's my point of view' is a tired crutch to lean on. A point of view can be totally incorrect, that's how we've ended up with flat-earthers.

If I wrote 'I believe in a positive theory of human flourishing, based upon an ideal of non-coercive consensus building', you'd be closer to my political philosophy.

Yesterday, at 14:45 I posted Just imagine what life could be like if we rejected the idea of left and right and just worked together to solve problems ....oh! followed by a emoji.

I'll leave it there. Have a fab day!

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Politics is horrible really.

I do think that most people want what’s best for society...it’s just been ramped up to such a stage that it’s just toxic.

I’ve certainly contributed to toxicity on here, try my best not to offer a contrarian position or one that will upset someone.
But then suddenly my ire cannot be pacified, I post my opinion in a prickish way....and while I may feel good about it for a short while, I ultimately I regret it.

I think my point here is that nuances, respectful disagreements and finer points are foregone online in favour of a one size “Fitz Hall” my side against yours.

Ultimately, when things are really partisan no one wins.
We are seeing it more and more now and it’s sad.

A heart-warming post and one I can relate to. And yes, it is sad. Everything political these days is so f*ng polar. I blame global warming!

[Rjk]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

this is spot on. consensus politics is far better than the partisan crap we are served up daily. Perhaps if we had PR rather than FPTP this would not be the case.

yes I agree with both these posts.
our political system is generating this kind of politics- because that's what it incentivises the politicians to do, blame each other, grandstanding and things that will play out well in the media rather than trying to fix things in the long run.

I can't see it being changed anytime soon though, as too many people who would need to be involved in changing it know where their bread is buttered.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

David Cameron won't be the first ex-PM to use that position to line his own pockets after office and he won't be the last. Cameron is a bum fluff beginner compared to Blair and Brown in this respect, but then I'm not against former PM's making money after public service. After all, they took a job where the pay really is not commensurate with the position and responsibility. The article is mere petty politicking, and serves no purpose other than Tory bashing. It adds nothing to the political debate although the anti Tories such as yourself lap it up as somehow being relevant. It is not.

Blair especially has coined it n after he left office, I’m not denying that, but I don’t remember either of them, or any other ex Prime Minister for that matter, becoming a lobbyist for a dodgy sounding individual like Cameron has - that’s the difference that you don’t want to recognise.

You accused me of being lazy earlier, well there can’t be anything much more lazy than just writing off something as “party politicking” because it appeared in Guardian - is this just party politicking as well?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9574309/David-Cameron-faces-grilling-MPs-lobbying-Greensill.html

[WJ99mobile]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

David Cameron won't be the first ex-PM to use that position to line his own pockets after office and he won't be the last. Cameron is a bum fluff beginner compared to Blair and Brown in this respect, but then I'm not against former PM's making money after public service. After all, they took a job where the pay really is not commensurate with the position and responsibility. The article is mere petty politicking, and serves no purpose other than Tory bashing. It adds nothing to the political debate although the anti Tories such as yourself lap it up as somehow being relevant. It is not.

I've had bosses that do very little that earn more than what a Prime Minister does

That in itself is a problem

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

yes I agree with both these posts.
our political system is generating this kind of politics- because that's what it incentivises the politicians to do, blame each other, grandstanding and things that will play out well in the media rather than trying to fix things in the long run.

I can't see it being changed anytime soon though, as too many people who would need to be involved in changing it know where their bread is buttered.

I'd like to see compulsory voting and proportional representation. It's the only way, at present, we can reject the idea of party politics and start electing the best people for society and the environment. In 2012 Gerard Casey wrote, “states are criminal organizations. All states, not just the obviously totalitarian or repressive ones”. I think he has a point.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

I'd like to see compulsory voting and proportional representation. It's the only way, at present, we can reject the idea of party politics and start electing the best people for society and the environment. In 2012 Gerard Casey wrote, “states are criminal organizations. All states, not just the obviously totalitarian or repressive ones”. I think he has a point.

I'll start voting if there's an option 'none of the above'. Proportional representation leads to weak government, deals, parties holding others to ransom. We would still be in the EU if we had it, even though the largest vote in UK history supported leaving.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

I'll start voting if there's an option 'none of the above'. Proportional representation leads to weak government, deals, parties holding others to ransom. We would still be in the EU if we had it, even though the largest vote in UK history supported leaving.

Of course, none of those things could ever happen under our current system, could they? I give you the DUP and Mrs May.

And the old, tired trope of 'the largest vote in UK history supported leaving' is a re-writing of history isn't it because it was a small margin of so-called victory? The abdication of any form of responsibility and lack of representation of 48% of that vote is one of the most undemocratic acts of a British government. Governments are supposed to represent everyone - even the people that didn't vote for them or their policies. If they don't, they are not fit for purpose.

[Rjk]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

I'll start voting if there's an option 'none of the above'. Proportional representation leads to weak government, deals, parties holding others to ransom. We would still be in the EU if we had it, even though the largest vote in UK history supported leaving.

If PR had been in plac for the 2015 general election then it is likely that a Conservative UKIP alliance would have had enough seats, so we would still have had a referendum.

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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

The whole left and right stance originated in 1789 and is subjective, old, and tedious. Something is either true or false. This can't happen under conservatism or any other political dogma/ideology. That's just logic. That's not a point of view.

What you're doing though is exactly the same thing as you're espousing to ridicule. You're doing it to me in every reply, along with a huge dose of assumption and presumption. The internet's so-called argument of 'it's my point of view' is a tired crutch to lean on. A point of view can be totally incorrect, that's how we've ended up with flat-earthers.

If I wrote 'I believe in a positive theory of human flourishing, based upon an ideal of non-coercive consensus building', you'd be closer to my political philosophy.

Yesterday, at 14:45 I posted Just imagine what life could be like if we rejected the idea of left and right and just worked together to solve problems ....oh! followed by a emoji.

I'll leave it there. Have a fab day!

apropos of your opening line I will assume you're referring to the Estates General and which side you sat on, however party politics predates that, certainly in the UK, by many years. Walpole was a Whig who opposed Tory policies in the first part of the 18th century. However I agree to a certain extent that something is either true or false, but when you're talking politics you are also talking economics, and as a pseudo science, there are many schools of thought, all of which have merit.

re: your second para, I disagree.

re: your third para, I agree.

Your final point is also agreed, but until we remove partisan party politics and engage in consensus politics via PR where all voices are heard, it will not happen. the main parties have too much to lose, though given Labour are sliding backwards, they may agree to PR as it may be the only way to keep the Tories out of power.

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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Blair especially has coined it n after he left office, I’m not denying that, but I don’t remember either of them, or any other ex Prime Minister for that matter, becoming a lobbyist for a dodgy sounding individual like Cameron has - that’s the difference that you don’t want to recognise.

You accused me of being lazy earlier, well there can’t be anything much more lazy than just writing off something as “party politicking” because it appeared in Guardian - is this just party politicking as well?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Greensill.html

No. it is lazy journalism. Cameron is not in government and has little or no influence, no matter what you may think. Hold this government to account by all means (and they certainly need to be held to account), but writing an article about one of the worst PMs we've had who has next to no influence at all serves no purpose whatsoever.

As for your comment about Cameron being dodgy, you'll have to excuse me but I've re-read what I wrote and I really cannot see where I overlooked this particular snippet? you seem to be attributing a position to me that only exists inside your head. My point, which was quite succinct, is that former PMs all look to milk that office for what its worth. Cameron is no different.

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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

I'd like to see compulsory voting and proportional representation. It's the only way, at present, we can reject the idea of party politics and start electing the best people for society and the environment. In 2012 Gerard Casey wrote, “states are criminal organizations. All states, not just the obviously totalitarian or repressive ones”. I think he has a point.