Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

[Hilts]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Starmer needs to wise up.

Saw an interview with Tory boy Archer on TV and he had a point with finding it unbelievable that 2 able politicians like Hilary Benn and Yvette Cooper are confined to the back benches.

We have a useless( maybe the most usless PM and front bench in history) and a pathetically weak opposition.

[Feedback]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Nail on the head and this is why when anybody asks 'are you calling the British public stupid?', I say 'yes'.

such arrogance

I don't care who they vote for but the majority view not long ago was that labour have too many policies, now the majority view is labour don't have enough policies.

could it be that previously there were too many policies and now there are too few?

Similar to the 'theres no point voting, the parties are to similar' then almost immediately 'the parties are too extreme left/right and we need more centre ground politics' in the 2010s.

the UK will always be won in the centre ground. The Tories know this, and Labour under Blair knew this. Sadly, most on the left aren't aware of this, or if they are, they prefer behaving like Citizen Smith than running the risk of getting into power.

Almost nobody has a good reason to vote the way they do and I blame the dumbos that used to say 'pick an issue and vote on it', it's far too complex to do that. If I said I was buying a car, nobody would say just pick one single attribute and buy based on that.

I'd buy a car based on the sound it made. it its a noisy V10 or V12 then I'm buying it.

[life on mars]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Why are ,people dumbos , thick , gullible, stupid, kents, dull , sheep for having a different view or apply a democratic choice, its quite disparaging ?

[Feedback]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Why are ,people dumbos , thick , gullible, stupid, kents, dull , sheep for having a different view or apply a democratic choice, its quite disparaging ?

it can be a general characteristic of those on the left that they believe someone who votes differently from them is either stupid or selfish. Those on the left tend to be less tolerant of those who hold differing political opinions.

the electorate should be free to make up their own minds about what is important to them and how they wish to vote. It is a fundamental principle of a functioning democracy that we have alternative viewpoints. Democracy is something many left wingers are against, as evidenced by certain posters comments in this thread

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

If that is the case how did this trend kick in well before Boris and Brexit or Corbyn and now the two later ones have gone and Sir keir is at the helm Labour and they didn't return in hundreds of other council seats , that is so rare with a sitting government .

In Eleven general elections 3 wins ( Blair , Blair , Blair ) without the Boris ,Brexit or Corbyn effect .

I think its much deeper that what folk think , the way out in my humble view is the for the Lib's, Greens and Labour to swallow their pride and past and become one party, perhaps called a Social /Green/ Democratic Alliance Party , that might rock the Tories and win the centre ground and power


Hartelepool since 97
1997 > 26k Huge Peter Mandelson Labour win ,only 3 parties standing then Tories with 18k in second place
2004 > 12.7k Labour win
2005 > 18.2k Labour win ( Tories in 3rd place with 4k )
2010 > 16.2k Labour win ( Tories into 2nd with 10.7k)
2015 > 15.1k Labour win ( Tories back to 3rd place with 8.2k , Brexit Party 2nd with 11k )
2017 > 21.8k Labour win ( Tories back into 2nd with 14.3k)
2019 > 15.4k Labour win ( Tories 2nd with 11.8k )
2021 > 15.2k Tory Win ( Labour 2nd with 8.5k )

Labour can't agree with themselves, how are they going to agree enough with the Greens at one end and the Lib Dems at the other to align their parties into one?

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

such arrogance

could it be that previously there were too many policies and now there are too few?


the UK will always be won in the centre ground. The Tories know this, and Labour under Blair knew this. Sadly, most on the left aren't aware of this, or if they are, they prefer behaving like Citizen Smith than running the risk of getting into power.

I'd buy a car based on the sound it made. it its a noisy V10 or V12 then I'm buying it.

The centre within UK politics has moved all over the place since 97. Politics is all about momentum, small things take a grip and destroy otherwise decent campaigns (May 17, Corbyn 19). Labour are constantly fighting fires and can't control the message, policy comes a distance second to 'credibility'. The evidence of this is simple, the Tories have won multiple elections without revealing any policy detail.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

Why are ,people dumbos , thick , gullible, stupid, kents, dull , sheep for having a different view or apply a democratic choice, its quite disparaging ?

To make myself clear (although it was already). Almost everybody is a dumbo, even the people who agree with me, even me, definitely you.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

it can be a general characteristic of those on the left that they believe someone who votes differently from them is either stupid or selfish. Those on the left tend to be less tolerant of those who hold differing political opinions.

the electorate should be free to make up their own minds about what is important to them and how they wish to vote. It is a fundamental principle of a functioning democracy that we have alternative viewpoints. Democracy is something many left wingers are against, as evidenced by certain posters comments in this thread

You need to learn to read but I am glad we have the real lefty-hating feedy back. Pretending to be the impartial non-biased observer must have been really difficult.

Democracy is the worst form of governance, except for the other ones.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

I'd like to see compulsory voting and proportional representation. It's the only way, at present, we can reject the idea of party politics and start electing the best people for society and the environment. In 2012 Gerard Casey wrote, “states are criminal organizations. All states, not just the obviously totalitarian or repressive ones”. I think he has a point.

What value is a vote by someone forced to cast one?

[Feedback]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

You need to learn to read but I am glad we have the real lefty-hating feedy back. Pretending to be the impartial non-biased observer must have been really difficult.

Democracy is the worst form of governance, except for the other ones.

I've not said I'm impartial and I most certainly don't hate the left - alhough it can be said I dislike left and right in equal measure. Conversely, I quite admire some aspects of what the left do, just look at the Greens in Germany. Lets hope they win in the forthcoming Bundestag elections and show the UK just what a strong centre left party can do - God knows we need a a strong opposition to hold the current government to account.

The issue we have in the UK is left wing politics is full of arseholes who cannot countenance someone who disagrees with their viewpoint. you only have to read these posts to see what left wingers truly think. pah!

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

What value is a vote by someone forced to cast one?

It's of greater value than no vote at all. An example would be jury service - we have to be jurors and we have to, for a period of time, listen to and understand the facts of a case and are expected to make a decision.

Democracy is meant to be a form of governance by the whole population. In the last election, only 42% of the UK population voted. Of the people that did vote, for a large number, under our current [un-democratic] system, their vote was a waste of time because they will have no representation at a local or national level.

I am totally skeptical of the justifications of power i.e. monarchy, church, political parties - and believe we must take personal responsibility for the environment and the society we live in. Abdication of that responsibility is, to me, a gross form of societal sabotage.

I must be clear here, I am not in favour of the status quo, far from it.

We are already living through a mass extinction event. The way we, as a society and on an individual basis, live, is unsustainable and our current environmental crisis is far more important than invented left or right politics let alone political parties.

We have a responsibility to each and every one of us and the ecosystem. We have a personal responsibility to educate ourselves, communicate effectively, and work together in decision-making, and in order to do that, I believe we have to reject the status quo and the notion of political parties.

The value of our vote, right now, is not worth very much because it gives too much power to the state.

We cannot continue to expect anything other than a social and environmental disaster if just over half of a population share no collective responsibility. For the vote to be compulsory it has to be of value though, and you quite rightly raise that issue.

[life on mars]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

To make myself clear (although it was already). Almost everybody is a dumbo, even the people who agree with me, even me, definitely you.

Phew I hate being left out lol.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

A few points in reply, your response suggests that what I said rattled your cage a bit, also you’ve spent a decade and more telling us on here that right is right, so it’s hard to reconcile you with being the reasonable man in the middle seeing both sides of the argument. However, although I do associate Conservatism with greed (I’ve always thought there is a dividing line between aspiration and greed, but it can be a thin one) and always will do, I was also making a general point that people tend to get more selfish/self absorbed as they get older - I have to admit I have.

I have gone the other way. I am far more mindful of other people as I get older - and am also more mindful of those who live on the breadline.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

It's of greater value than no vote at all. An example would be jury service - we have to be jurors and we have to, for a period of time, listen to and understand the facts of a case and are expected to make a decision.

Democracy is meant to be a form of governance by the whole population. In the last election, only 42% of the UK population voted. Of the people that did vote, for a large number, under our current [un-democratic] system, their vote was a waste of time because they will have no representation at a local or national level.

I am totally skeptical of the justifications of power i.e. monarchy, church, political parties - and believe we must take personal responsibility for the environment and the society we live in. Abdication of that responsibility is, to me, a gross form of societal sabotage.

I must be clear here, I am not in favour of the status quo, far from it.

We are already living through a mass extinction event. The way we, as a society and on an individual basis, live, is unsustainable and our current environmental crisis is far more important than invented left or right politics let alone political parties.

We have a responsibility to each and every one of us and the ecosystem. We have a personal responsibility to educate ourselves, communicate effectively, and work together in decision-making, and in order to do that, I believe we have to reject the status quo and the notion of political parties.

The value of our vote, right now, is not worth very much because it gives too much power to the state.

We cannot continue to expect anything other than a social and environmental disaster if just over half of a population share no collective responsibility. For the vote to be compulsory it has to be of value though, and you quite rightly raise that issue.

I certainly don't believe that a forced vote is of greater value than no vote at all. Those being forced to vote probably care not a jot about the outcome nor where they place an X on the ballot paper.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

I certainly don't believe that a forced vote is of greater value than no vote at all. Those being forced to vote probably care not a jot about the outcome nor where they place an X on the ballot paper.

Until we force people to start taking personal responsibility for the decisions that have an impact on them, their families, colleagues, friends, and others, what hope do we have? If those being forced to vote care not a jot about the outcome or where they place an X on a ballot paper then should they reap the benefits of a society that is only in place because there are others who do care?

Of course, if these uncaring voters and 58% of non-voters in the UK end up living in a society that actively discriminates against them, their families, etc. because they just placed an X anywhere or didn't vote - maybe they'll be more appreciative of having the opportunity next time? Assuming there is a next time.

I'd ask myself this. Do I want to live in a society that forces me to actively partake in a democratic system or one that actively prevents me?

I understand the arguments for and against and I understand that there are complications. There would have to be caveats, for example, legal obligations to fulfill policies, local communities selecting local candidates that aren't affiliated to political parties, financial controls, and many more. But something has to change as the world is clearly broken.

We can all throw rocks. I may dislike many politicians and parties but I do respect the fact that they are actively putting themselves forward when the vast majority carp from the sidelines. If we could encourage and educate and admit to our institutionalisation maybe we'd have some hope.

We're just going to have to disagree on this one.