BLM - Will you boo ?

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Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

What you said was 'Slavery has never been legal in the UK, not since the time of Vortigern.' There may have been court cases in the late 16th and 18th centuries that concluded slavery was not recognised by English law at the time - but if not legal at that point it wasn't illegal either. Which is why there were tens of thousands of slaves in 'the UK' up until about 1800. And why pick on Vortigern? Saxon, Viking, native Irish and medieval Welsh societies all had slaves - under a whole range of different legal systems and all long after Vortigern, before you get to early modern Britain and Ireland where de facto slavery of Afro-Carribean and American black people continued for centuries.

whilst slaves were taken in the early middle ages, it wasn't legal per se. There are many attested Saxon kings who set out in law that slavery was illegal. Likewise the Danes and Normans thereafter. As I'm sure you can appreciate, enforcing the laws in those times would not have been easy given the lack of communication and issues with travel.

You seem to be determined to deflect from the purpose and impact of the BLM movement but are picking on the flimsiest excuses.

this isn't your first day on the internet so you must be aware threads ebb and flow away from their original topic. In this case, I'm merely adding to the point that its not as clear cut as you wish to make it out to be. And my point still stands, I just can't see how pulling down a statue is going to undo years of history and oppression, or make anything right again. It won't.

[Feedback]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

Which society? When I joined this conversation, you were talking about the Colston statue in Bristol. Then, for no apparent reason, you chose to bring structures in Italy, Greece and Mexico into the equation. Then you asked where do we stop?

So were you talking about British society? Or Italian society? Or Greek society? Or Mexican society? Or did you mean to say mankind?

well since slavery has always been endemic throughout every society and civilisation, then its clearly an issue for mankind.

Its still going on today, but apparently its more important to pull statues down than to raise awareness and fight for the rights of the likes of the Uyghars and Rohingya who are suffering just as bad as the Jews did in WW2.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

It is you who has missed the point. Slavery is still rife in this world and always has been. Even today we have acts of genocide.

But rather than looking to see how we can rid the world of such hate its best we target statues of long since dead individuals,who have no impact whatsoever on todays world.

The fact that members of the black community want to get rid of some of the statues suggests that they do indeed have an impact on them. Try seeing the world from the eyes of others.

[adz-a32]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

It annoys people like you. It makes people like you feel uncomfortable. It empowers people who are genuinely opposed to racism and bigotry. It opens up more debate and discussion about the issue of racism. It signals to the racists and bigots that they won’t get things all their own way. It demonstrates that society is changing. It highlights changes in attitudes. It suggests the past is less important than the future. But most of all it annoys people like you.

None of these things make an enormous difference in themselves - not BLM, not tearing down statues, not anti-racism demonstrations, not Kick It Out, not taking the knee, etc. But all of them demonstrate a steady societal shift and all of them annoy people like you, so they all have value.

Well said. A message is need to be sent that racism is not okay. And if people get annoyed by that, we know who the true 'snowflakes' are

[Feedback]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

The fact that members of the black community want to get rid of some of the statues suggests that they do indeed have an impact on them. Try seeing the world from the eyes of others.

I do, its why I ask so many questions and speak to quite a few people on this and many other topics. I can't experience what they have until I've walked a mile in their shoes. I'm well aware their own experiences may be different from my own. That does not mean we have to pander to every individual who dislikes one thing or another.

Queen Victoria - she used heroin and cocaine quite openly. You could speak to many family members who've had their own lives ruined (and not their ancestors lives) by heroin and cocaine yet here we are, we still have statues of Queen Victoria and no one is calling for them to be pulled down. Why is that? after all, such families have been impacted directly by drugs and yet as a society we glorify Queen Vic like no other monarch.

I'm pretty sure you'll say its different but it isn't really (e.g. the Opium wars)

[Tuerto]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

I do, its why I ask so many questions and speak to quite a few people on this and many other topics. I can't experience what they have until I've walked a mile in their shoes. I'm well aware their own experiences may be different from my own. That does not mean we have to pander to every individual who dislikes one thing or another.

Queen Victoria - she used heroin and cocaine quite openly. You could speak to many family members who've had their own lives ruined (and not their ancestors lives) by heroin and cocaine yet here we are, we still have statues of Queen Victoria and no one is calling for them to be pulled down. Why is that? after all, such families have been impacted directly by drugs and yet as a society we glorify Queen Vic like no other monarch.

I'm pretty sure you'll say its different but it isn't really (e.g. the Opium wars)

Come on, we're not pandering to every individual who dislikes one thing or another. Look at things society wide, and politically in this country, i'm sure that you'll see that individuals aren't pandered to. This is about a symbolic gesture, it may not change that much now, but it may add to improvements long after we're gone. A lot of British history is based on imperialism, and sub consciously, plenty of our culture. I think that we're now witnessing a level of post colonial fallout in the traditional working class white areas, probably have been for the best part of 50 years. It's in some part responsible for elements of division in this country. White working class feeling let down, abandoned, and grasping onto historical characters as a way of protecting a history that never did belong to them. The political classes thrive on such division. It makes oppressive policy much easier for them to implement.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

I do, its why I ask so many questions and speak to quite a few people on this and many other topics. I can't experience what they have until I've walked a mile in their shoes. I'm well aware their own experiences may be different from my own. That does not mean we have to pander to every individual who dislikes one thing or another.

Queen Victoria - she used heroin and cocaine quite openly. You could speak to many family members who've had their own lives ruined (and not their ancestors lives) by heroin and cocaine yet here we are, we still have statues of Queen Victoria and no one is calling for them to be pulled down. Why is that? after all, such families have been impacted directly by drugs and yet as a society we glorify Queen Vic like no other monarch.

I'm pretty sure you'll say its different but it isn't really (e.g. the Opium wars)

Have you discussed this matter with any black people in order to understand their perspective?

[Feedback]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

Have you discussed this matter with any black people in order to understand their perspective?

yes of course, and my impression is that just like on here, there are many different views, given everyone has different life experiences.

[Feedback]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

Come on, we're not pandering to every individual who dislikes one thing or another. Look at things society wide, and politically in this country, i'm sure that you'll see that individuals aren't pandered to. This is about a symbolic gesture, it may not change that much now, but it may add to improvements long after we're gone. A lot of British history is based on imperialism, and sub consciously, plenty of our culture. I think that we're now witnessing a level of post colonial fallout in the traditional working class white areas, probably have been for the best part of 50 years. It's in some part responsible for elements of division in this country. White working class feeling let down, abandoned, and grasping onto historical characters as a way of protecting a history that never did belong to them. The political classes thrive on such division. It makes oppressive policy much easier for them to implement.

I mix with a lot of working class Mancunians, the likes of which dislike Thatcher, Cameron and Boris. They're your white working class. none of them shed a tear over the empire - in fact most of them if not all are glad its gone. That's my own experience, its anecdotal and I'm not suggesting it a fait accompli. But I just don't think the majority of British, certainly below a certain age, would consider themselves superior to anyone else. Well that's what I thought until the Brexit farce.

Do we need to do more to make society more equal - yes of course. Is the correct way to achieve that through mob action - I don't think it is.

IMHO there is a better way, I've already alluded to it. Its about educating our children first and foremost and secondly engaging with the racists to understand their point of view - as only then can you break down their arguments and rationale.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

yes of course, and my impression is that just like on here, there are many different views, given everyone has different life experiences.

Of course there will be different views as no community will be of the same mind. Anyway, I'll say no more on the subject as it would be pointless.

[jon1959]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/10/stopping-players-taking-the-knee-millwall-racists-victory

Yes, taking the knee - much like refusing to give up a seat on a bus – is a political act. But it’s an act that any fair-minded individual should support and empathise with. And this week the acts of those in positions of power, from football club owners to government ministers, have set back the cause of race equality.

I agree - good opinion piece.

[Tuerto]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

I mix with a lot of working class Mancunians, the likes of which dislike Thatcher, Cameron and Boris. They're your white working class. none of them shed a tear over the empire - in fact most of them if not all are glad its gone. That's my own experience, its anecdotal and I'm not suggesting it a fait accompli. But I just don't think the majority of British, certainly below a certain age, would consider themselves superior to anyone else. Well that's what I thought until the Brexit farce.

Do we need to do more to make society more equal - yes of course. Is the correct way to achieve that through mob action - I don't think it is.

IMHO there is a better way, I've already alluded to it. Its about educating our children first and foremost and secondly engaging with the racists to understand their point of view - as only then can you break down their arguments and rationale.

I'm talking about the working class UKIP voters, the ones who have probably seen their industries decemated along with their communities, and are now engaging in reactionary politics. The ironic thing is that the working classes have probably done more for multi -culturalism than anyone else, the poor have always been more accepting and understanding, even when they've probably had more to lose than anyone else. We've had mixed communities for a couple of centuries, yes there were problems, but those problems ramped up when industries were attacked due to privatisation and a sustained attack on workers having an element of power. ( i don't expect you to agree with that though.

[The Lone Gunman]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

well since slavery has always been endemic throughout every society and civilisation, then its clearly an issue for mankind.

Right. So when you said society, you actually meant mankind. Keep up at the back.

[Feedback]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

I'm talking about the working class UKIP voters, the ones who have probably seen their industries decemated along with their communities, and are now engaging in reactionary politics. The ironic thing is that the working classes have probably done more for multi -culturalism than anyone else, the poor have always been more accepting and understanding, even when they've probably had more to lose than anyone else. We've had mixed communities for a couple of centuries, yes there were problems, but those problems ramped up when industries were attacked due to privatisation and a sustained attack on workers having an element of power. ( i don't expect you to agree with that though.

To be honest I dont really disagree. I've got no issue with people sticking together- I referenced the workers of Manchester boycotting Southern cotton during the American civil war, at great cost to themselves but for a most noble cause.

I dont understand UKIP voters, but they were ignored for so long a referendum change the direction of the UK, and not a direction I ever wanted us to take.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

I do, its why I ask so many questions and speak to quite a few people on this and many other topics. I can't experience what they have until I've walked a mile in their shoes. I'm well aware their own experiences may be different from my own. That does not mean we have to pander to every individual who dislikes one thing or another.

Queen Victoria - she used heroin and cocaine quite openly. You could speak to many family members who've had their own lives ruined (and not their ancestors lives) by heroin and cocaine yet here we are, we still have statues of Queen Victoria and no one is calling for them to be pulled down. Why is that? after all, such families have been impacted directly by drugs and yet as a society we glorify Queen Vic like no other monarch.

I'm pretty sure you'll say its different but it isn't really (e.g. the Opium wars)

Colston isn't as historically notable, by a long way. This all depends on your view of what a statue like this is for, comparing it to a relic or crowd-drawing attraction is deliberately missing the point I think. A statue like this, in my opinion, only exists to commemorate somebody that, by and large, the community want to present as being a good influence on their society. Maybe at one time the people of Bristol felt that the positive things Colston did outweighed the negative, I doubt that is the case now though.

Having said that, I think it is probably right that this has been followed up by the CPS because we don't want everyone tearing statues down whenever they have some kind of grievance. However, the foaming at the mouth and hand wringing at the time of the protests from those that would love to pretend racism doesn't exist and that Britain has never been complicit in anything morally dubious was as predictable as it was laughable.