Another random attack on British jews

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

Sure. When someone stabs a couple of Jewish people, don't go straight into a zone of misinformation and try to imply it's to do with someone it isn't whilst ignoring the causes behind the recent spate of antisemitic attacks which the vast bulk of the media, police and politicians was talking about at great length yesterday.

Imagine if a couple of Jewish people were stabbed and someone instantly came on here talking about Jeremy Corbyns scandals from a few years ago? You would think thats wrong, because it is. Same in this instance.

You can say what you like, but it was distasteful politicing in my opinion on so serious a topic. Sure, this board doesn't matter, but in the grand scheme of things no conversations matter. I still think the idea of twisting what happened and making a party political point was at best a cheap shot esp when not taking this issue seriously is at least part of how we have got to where we are, where people are afraid to outwardly show their religion in the UK.

If you didn't mean it like that, fine, but that's how it came across.

But you have spent almost the entire thread responding to posts about Farage, if you don't think he's relevant, don't reply, you aren't his PR guy.

Others have tried to offer a view of where we could go now and you just ignore all those posts and gravitate towards the ones that annoy you.

I don't think anybody wants people running around on stabbing sprees but do we actually know what the causes are?

[JamesWales]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

But you have spent almost the entire thread responding to posts about Farage, if you don't think he's relevant, don't reply, you aren't his PR guy.

Others have tried to offer a view of where we could go now and you just ignore all those posts and gravitate towards the ones that annoy you.

I don't think anybody wants people running around on stabbing sprees but do we actually know what the causes are?

If someone asks me a question, I'll tend to reply.

The issue, as I've said, is that in my opinion it's part of a longer term issue to not talk about some of the bigger issues being discussed about who is attacking Jewish people in the UK and why. So yeah it pisses me off.

[Dorcus]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

But you have spent almost the entire thread responding to posts about Farage, if you don't think he's relevant, don't reply, you aren't his PR guy.

Others have tried to offer a view of where we could go now and you just ignore all those posts and gravitate towards the ones that annoy you.

I don't think anybody wants people running around on stabbing sprees but do we actually know what the causes are?

I think this is a sensible riposte Eric.

I noticed our James started this thread and the Jewish cause is a particular hobby horse of his.

First and foremost, any sane, compassionate human being would immediately condemn these sort of random, vicious attacks on innocent human beings. They are appalling and the assailants need locking up when proven guilty and the poor victims need support and empathy.

However, there are other broader issues here and in true James fashion he not only steadfastly refuses to address them, he actively criticises others for alluding to them. A dangerous and disingenuous game in my opinion.

A couple of brief thoughts got consideration:

1. The elephant in the room is that since the start of the Gaza massacre hostility against Jews has risen massively. It may not be right but unfortunately it is human nature. Those poor victims in Golders Green would not have been the instigators of the evil genocide and they should never have been targeted, but unfortunately because of human nature the acts of the Israeli government can cause guilt by association and some equally evil or deranged people can seek retribution. It is beyond despair.

By ignoring this fact any amount of hand wringing is futile and I lay dome of the responsibility firmly with Starmer and his cronies for tacitly supporting the mass murder of innocent people.

2. The captured assailant in this instance was reported upon as having a history of mental health issues and by the way that prompted Polanski's intervention. It's reported there was a third victim whose name was released and it is Hussain. Not an obvious name of Jewish heritage.

It's very newsworthy and tempting to senationalise this attack as Anti Semetic but given the information on this assailants mental health history and the fact someone else was attacked with no apparent link to Golders Green, is it premature to claim anti semitism until the full facts emerge. This may just be the work of a deranged mind.

3. Polanski's comments. I looked at the police footage and I felt that kicking the guy in the head several times was way over the top and distressing, given the fact the guy had been tasered and there were two taser armed officers standing over him. Yes he had a knife and appeared to resist releasing it but nevertheless given he was incapacitated I think he could have been disarmed with the brutal force.

For this reason I think Polanski was Right to raise the comment because, unless absolutely necessary, is it right to subject people with mental health issues to unnecessary violence? The trouble is if some people believe it's ok to do so because the police do it then this sort of behaviour could be considered acceptable to perform by any old Mick and Harry. I think this deserves further consideration.

4. Finally Farage
What more to say? Why was he at the scene if not to seek advantage out of tragedy.

[JamesWales]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

I think this is a sensible riposte Eric.

I noticed our James started this thread and the Jewish cause is a particular hobby horse of his.

First and foremost, any sane, compassionate human being would immediately condemn these sort of random, vicious attacks on innocent human beings. They are appalling and the assailants need locking up when proven guilty and the poor victims need support and empathy.

However, there are other broader issues here and in true James fashion he not only steadfastly refuses to address them, he actively criticises others for alluding to them. A dangerous and disingenuous game in my opinion.

A couple of brief thoughts got consideration:

1. The elephant in the room is that since the start of the Gaza massacre hostility against Jews has risen massively. It may not be right but unfortunately it is human nature. Those poor victims in Golders Green would not have been the instigators of the evil genocide and they should never have been targeted, but unfortunately because of human nature the acts of the Israeli government can cause guilt by association and some equally evil or deranged people can seek retribution. It is beyond despair.

By ignoring this fact any amount of hand wringing is futile and I lay dome of the responsibility firmly with Starmer and his cronies for tacitly supporting the mass murder of innocent people.

2. The captured assailant in this instance was reported upon as having a history of mental health issues and by the way that prompted Polanski's intervention. It's reported there was a third victim whose name was released and it is Hussain. Not an obvious name of Jewish heritage.

It's very newsworthy and tempting to senationalise this attack as Anti Semetic but given the information on this assailants mental health history and the fact someone else was attacked with no apparent link to Golders Green, is it premature to claim anti semitism until the full facts emerge. This may just be the work of a deranged mind.

3. Polanski's comments. I looked at the police footage and I felt that kicking the guy in the head several times was way over the top and distressing, given the fact the guy had been tasered and there were two taser armed officers standing over him. Yes he had a knife and appeared to resist releasing it but nevertheless given he was incapacitated I think he could have been disarmed with the brutal force.

For this reason I think Polanski was Right to raise the comment because, unless absolutely necessary, is it right to subject people with mental health issues to unnecessary violence? The trouble is if some people believe it's ok to do so because the police do it then this sort of behaviour could be considered acceptable to perform by any old Mick and Harry. I think this deserves further consideration.

4. Finally Farage
What more to say? Why was he at the scene if not to seek advantage out of tragedy.

Useful post Dorcus, cheers.

The Jewish cause isn't a particular hobby horse. But people being routinely violently attacked for their religion (or indeed any other reason!) is. Its repulsive. These are violent physical attacks, which go way beyond words or ideas. And it's been brewing for sometime.

I didn't raise the points you addressed (although I alluded to some of them) because there was an attempt to derail the topic at the start. Now you have raised them, I think:

1 / It is indeed the elephant in the room, agreed. Its a key part to a lot of antisemitic incidents. It is grossly unfair and racist to target anyone of course but it's a kaye factor in explaining things, but far from the only factor and anti Jewish hatred didnt stem from there, it just added fuel to an already lit fire.

2 / Nearly every attacker of this kind has a poor mental health history. He did apparently attack a friend of his in the morning in south London, but it is generally accepted that he then went to Holders Green (the most renowned home of the Jewish community in London) and targeting visibly Jewish people. He also has a history of being referred to Prevent - which as yet we don't know full details

3 / The police didn't know what he had in his bag and urgently needed him disarmed and unable to tamper with it. Its understandable having just stabbed people (so clearly dangerous) that they do this as quickly as possible. His mental I'll health is nothing to do with it. I think Polanski showed a real lack of political nous in posting that, esp at that time and he was wrong - it was a time to praise the police in disarming someone trying to cause harm

4 / Farage is a politician. He is going to be interviewed and talk about it. Other politicians were there too. The fact he headed to the scene, showed support (which seemed welcome based on those stood next to him) may annoy you, but to a community in need it's not the worst thing. It was being a politician, but my issue was that some on here had more to say about that and made that their key take away from this, and that was distasteful IMO.

👍

[Dorcus]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

Useful post Dorcus, cheers.

The Jewish cause isn't a particular hobby horse. But people being routinely violently attacked for their religion (or indeed any other reason!) is. Its repulsive. These are violent physical attacks, which go way beyond words or ideas. And it's been brewing for sometime.

I didn't raise the points you addressed (although I alluded to some of them) because there was an attempt to derail the topic at the start. Now you have raised them, I think:

1 / It is indeed the elephant in the room, agreed. Its a key part to a lot of antisemitic incidents. It is grossly unfair and racist to target anyone of course but it's a kaye factor in explaining things, but far from the only factor and anti Jewish hatred didnt stem from there, it just added fuel to an already lit fire.

2 / Nearly every attacker of this kind has a poor mental health history. He did apparently attack a friend of his in the morning in south London, but it is generally accepted that he then went to Holders Green (the most renowned home of the Jewish community in London) and targeting visibly Jewish people. He also has a history of being referred to Prevent - which as yet we don't know full details

3 / The police didn't know what he had in his bag and urgently needed him disarmed and unable to tamper with it. Its understandable having just stabbed people (so clearly dangerous) that they do this as quickly as possible. His mental I'll health is nothing to do with it. I think Polanski showed a real lack of political nous in posting that, esp at that time and he was wrong - it was a time to praise the police in disarming someone trying to cause harm

4 / Farage is a politician. He is going to be interviewed and talk about it. The fact he headed to the scene, showed support, which seemed welcome may annoy you, but to a community in need it's not the worst thing. It was being a politician, but my issue was that some on here had more to say about that and made that their key take away from this, and that was distasteful IMO.

👍

Like everything there are multiple issues acting out simultaneously. It is unwise to jump to conclusions precipitously. Obviously these are dangerous times and I think some politicians often speak too soon without sufficient thought. Also there is a danger these political presentations can skew opinions when performed in highly charged circumstances.

In all fairness your reply was reasonable but I still disagree on your opinion of the wanton use of brutal force, especially in the case of mentally ill people. It would simply have been more reasonable if Mark Rowley had tried to defend his officers as working in a dangerous, unpredictable and tense situation but had confirmed there was always room to reconsider officer training methods and procedures

[JamesWales]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

Like everything there are multiple issues acting out simultaneously. It is unwise to jump to conclusions precipitously. Obviously these are dangerous times and I think some politicians often speak too soon without sufficient thought. Also there is a danger these political presentations can skew opinions when performed in highly charged circumstances.

In all fairness your reply was reasonable but I still disagree on your opinion of the wanton use of brutal force, especially in the case of mentally ill people. It would simply have been more reasonable if Mark Rowley had tried to defend his officers as working in a dangerous, unpredictable and tense situation but had confirmed there was always room to reconsider officer training methods and procedures

Trust me, I am a big advocate of support and understanding for mental ill health and in a proactive sense for mental wellbeing generally - it frames a lot of my thinking.

But mental Ill health isn't a reason to treat someone who is clearly dangerous and potentially has a bomb with kid gloves. They need disarming and detaining at the earliest opportunity, irrespective of mental history, which the police on the ground would have had zero knowledge of. Polanski was wrong to retweet it.

And yes when people calmly go through these issues and present their thoughts and provide responses I think it's a great way to discuss things so thanks for framing the questions in such a way.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

Useful post Dorcus, cheers.

The Jewish cause isn't a particular hobby horse. But people being routinely violently attacked for their religion (or indeed any other reason!) is. Its repulsive. These are violent physical attacks, which go way beyond words or ideas. And it's been brewing for sometime.

I didn't raise the points you addressed (although I alluded to some of them) because there was an attempt to derail the topic at the start. Now you have raised them, I think:

1 / It is indeed the elephant in the room, agreed. Its a key part to a lot of antisemitic incidents. It is grossly unfair and racist to target anyone of course but it's a kaye factor in explaining things, but far from the only factor and anti Jewish hatred didnt stem from there, it just added fuel to an already lit fire.

2 / Nearly every attacker of this kind has a poor mental health history. He did apparently attack a friend of his in the morning in south London, but it is generally accepted that he then went to Holders Green (the most renowned home of the Jewish community in London) and targeting visibly Jewish people. He also has a history of being referred to Prevent - which as yet we don't know full details

3 / The police didn't know what he had in his bag and urgently needed him disarmed and unable to tamper with it. Its understandable having just stabbed people (so clearly dangerous) that they do this as quickly as possible. His mental I'll health is nothing to do with it. I think Polanski showed a real lack of political nous in posting that, esp at that time and he was wrong - it was a time to praise the police in disarming someone trying to cause harm

4 / Farage is a politician. He is going to be interviewed and talk about it. Other politicians were there too. The fact he headed to the scene, showed support (which seemed welcome based on those stood next to him) may annoy you, but to a community in need it's not the worst thing. It was being a politician, but my issue was that some on here had more to say about that and made that their key take away from this, and that was distasteful IMO.

��

So, mentioning what you acknowledge as the elaphant in the room is an attempt to “derail the thread” until you decide nearly a day later that it’s worthy of discussion? Anti Semitism has existed for centuries of course, but my attitude towards Netanyahu’s Israeli changed noticeably when it became clear that their response to what happened on 7 October was so over the top. The truth is though that, if I’d bothered to look, Israel”s approach to Gaza was edging towards a genocide (maybe it was one?) before 7 October.

Although I didn’t” listen to all of what seemed to be 5 Live’s blanket coverage of the stabbings on Thursday, it was telling how often I heard Jews saying how much things have changed for the worse in recent years, it was remarked that in the past they’d been able to live a “normal” life in the UK, but now they cannot do things they used to take for granted without having a sense of fear. So, what has Israel done in recent years that may drive some towards violence towards Jews or, as in my case, make them far more anti Israel than I was I wonder?

[Jordi Culé]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/iran-war-middle-east-trump-british-jews-mi5-b2968741.html

Let’s derail the thread further.

[Jordi Culé]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

Useful post Dorcus, cheers.



��

Well done Dorcus. You’re names on the door list.

[jon1959]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2968741.html

Let’s derail the thread further.

Polanski apologised for the retweet saying everyone should be trying to lower the temperature. Mark Rowley has piled in with an attack on Polanski and others in a way that can only raise the temperature. A cynic might think that has something to do with his ‘negotiations’ with the government over the Met budget.

[Hilts]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

Farage is a disgrace.

Should have resigned from politics when his past bullying of Jews was revealed.

Starmer is under pressure over Mandelson. If he had been revealed to have done what Farage had no way he would have survived and the Aint Half Hot Mum comparison certainly wouldn't have saved him.

Farage meanwhile has a chance of being a future PM.

[Jordi Culé]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

Polanski apologised for the retweet saying everyone should be trying to lower the temperature. Mark Rowley has piled in with an attack on Polanski and others in a way that can only raise the temperature. A cynic might think that has something to do with his ‘negotiations’ with the government over the Met budget.

Undoubtedly, Rowley will use the events for barter in relation to negotiating future budgets but interesting him and intelligence sources allude to the heightened tensions towards the Jewish community to events in the Middle East.

I await with interest if James deems this information relevant enough to be considered about the wider context?

Only my opinion but Polanski was rather twp to retweet what he did but has apologised. I also think there was no need for the Police to boot the alleged attacker in the head when already on the deck, when another taser would’ve done the trick for me.

Bzzzzzzzz… Zap….. attacker fits like an epileptic…. Job done.

[JamesWales]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

So, mentioning what you acknowledge as the elaphant in the room is an attempt to “derail the thread” until you decide nearly a day later that it’s worthy of discussion? Anti Semitism has existed for centuries of course, but my attitude towards Netanyahu’s Israeli changed noticeably when it became clear that their response to what happened on 7 October was so over the top. The truth is though that, if I’d bothered to look, Israel”s approach to Gaza was edging towards a genocide (maybe it was one?) before 7 October.

Although I didn’t” listen to all of what seemed to be 5 Live’s blanket coverage of the stabbings on Thursday, it was telling how often I heard Jews saying how much things have changed for the worse in recent years, it was remarked that in the past they’d been able to live a “normal” life in the UK, but now they cannot do things they used to take for granted without having a sense of fear. So, what has Israel done in recent years that may drive some towards violence towards Jews or, as in my case, make them far more anti Israel than I was I wonder?

No, Jordi and Sludge trying to turn the stabbing of two Jewish guys into another anti Farage/Reform thing was the attempt to derail. Predictable of course.

[JamesWales]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

Undoubtedly, Rowley will use the events for barter in relation to negotiating future budgets but interesting him and intelligence sources allude to the heightened tensions towards the Jewish community to events in the Middle East.

I await with interest if James deems this information relevant enough to be considered about the wider context?

Only my opinion but Polanski was rather twp to retweet what he did but has apologised. I also think there was no need for the Police to boot the alleged attacker in the head when already on the deck, when another taser would’ve done the trick for me.

Bzzzzzzzz… Zap….. attacker fits like an epileptic…. Job done.

Didn't realise you were such an expert in counter terror policing, but thankfully the Met do read this board.

You can type about what you like, but if your first post on the violent attack on two Jewish guys is to make a cheap political point then expect someone to pull you up on it. As stated before, if someone had said this about Corbyn (for example) it's exactly what you would be doing, so I know it's a concept you understand.

[Jordi Culé]

Re: Another random attack on British jews

Didn't realise you were such an expert in counter terror policing, but thankfully the Met do read this board.

You can type about what you like, but if your first post on the violent attack on two Jewish guys is to make a cheap political point then expect someone to pull you up on it. As stated before, if someone had said this about Corbyn (for example) it's exactly what you would be doing, so I know it's a concept you understand.

Wara teg James, talk about missing the point on an observation, which I’ll add I’ve explained for you as that nuance radar you possess has glitched again.

What you’re saying is now, wider context cannot be considered unless you deem it worthy enough?

Fuucking brilliant, good to see you’re still on that pedestal you’ve placed yourself on and the keeper of all sense on this board.

Never change James, it really is funny as fuuck.