BLM - Will you boo ?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

No.

I'm saying that slavery has affected us all, not just the black community (which in the UK would have seen members of this community having very little chance of being descended from slaves unless they were migrants from the Windies).

All throughout history man has always looked to enslave his fellow man, its not unique to Europeans and Africans.

If you understand the Barbary pirates you'll be aware of the impact they had on the USA and that nation's own struggle with the institution of slavery. Africans enslaving Europeans had quite a significant impact on US policy towards its own enslaved peoples ergo a direct impact on todays issues faced by black Americans.

:hehe:

[Feedback]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

:hehe:

You were the one who said it, not me.

[jon1959]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

Who said the Barbary wars ended American slavery?

Can I suggest you go back and read once again what I wrote because at no point have I suggested anything remotely like what you are suggesting.

Then we can pick this up when you are better informed.

Edit: one other thing, the corsairs favoured white Europeans as these brought a higher price in the Muslim markets of North Africa and the Middle East. Your claim that the Barbary pirates preferred fellow Africans is just not true

Oh, go on then.

No-one said 'the Barbary wars ended American slavery' as far as I know. Why do you ask?

I did read what you wrote about the Barbary pirates. I quoted it. Including you saying we should be aware of 'the impact they had on the USA and that nation's own struggle with the institution of slavery. Africans enslaving Europeans had quite a significant impact on US policy towards its own enslaved peoples'. You said 'significant impact' and I translated that into 'a major factor'. So those two phrases are not remotely alike? OK.

The corsairs of north Africa certainly took slaves from European ships and coastal settlements - the Mediterranean but including Ireland, Iceland, England and the Adriatic coast - but they also took large numbers of slaves from West Africa and (in big numbers) from villages, towns and cities across north Africa itself. Neither of us are experts on this and the historians are still arguing over the records but my take is that the slave trade from the Barbary Coast the victims came from Africa as well as Europe and the pirates were also from all over - including Albania, Greece and England (Captain Jack Ward!). The Barbary trade was in steep decline by the late 18th century and had ended by 1830.

Now you are better informed maybe you can explain what point you were trying to make now we all understand the Barbary pirates?

[Rjk]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

No slaves came into the UK. The slave trade took bills of exchange from Bristol, Southampton and Liverpool to West Africa, which in turn took slaves to the Americas, which in turn sent raw materials back to the UK.

Slavery has never been legal in the UK, not since the time of Vortigern.

There absolutely were slaves in the UK.

[Rjk]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

Let me pit it another way, its more likely than not that the pious victorians who had significantly greater moral fortitude than we do today weren't thinking about slavery when they erected the statue of Colston.

I think you need to go and read more about the Victorians if you think they were pious

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

You were the one who said it, not me.

You are missing the point (that everyone else on here seems to get) that the black community are probably far more concerned with their own history rather than pondering about the Ottoman Empire and the Corsairs. If you don't understand their perspective God knows how 'you understand the Barbary Pirates':hehe:

[Feedback]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

Oh, go on then.

No-one said 'the Barbary wars ended American slavery' as far as I know. Why do you ask?

I did read what you wrote about the Barbary pirates. I quoted it. Including you saying we should be aware of 'the impact they had on the USA and that nation's own struggle with the institution of slavery. Africans enslaving Europeans had quite a significant impact on US policy towards its own enslaved peoples'. You said 'significant impact' and I translated that into 'a major factor'. So those two phrases are not remotely alike? OK.

The corsairs of north Africa certainly took slaves from European ships and coastal settlements - the Mediterranean but including Ireland, Iceland, England and the Adriatic coast - but they also took large numbers of slaves from West Africa and (in big numbers) from villages, towns and cities across north Africa itself. Neither of us are experts on this and the historians are still arguing over the records but my take is that the slave trade from the Barbary Coast the victims came from Africa as well as Europe and the pirates were also from all over - including Albania, Greece and England (Captain Jack Ward!). The Barbary trade was in steep decline by the late 18th century and had ended by 1830.

Now you are better informed maybe you can explain what point you were trying to make now we all understand the Barbary pirates?

First of all, the way the Barbary wars panned out impacted the way the USA treated its slave population contemporaneously. No one suggested it lead to the US civil war or any other US slave led policy (such as the compromise of 1850) post the Barbary wars. What did happen was the south galvanised as it was clear that slavery as an institution wasn't as immoral as the North and the UK made out, given other nations practiced it openly. Adrian Tinniswood is an excellent author who has written extensively on the subject, so before commenting further why not read what he has to say on the subject and how the Barbary wars impacted the American psyche

[Feedback]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

You are missing the point (that everyone else on here seems to get) that the black community are probably far more concerned with their own history rather than pondering about the Ottoman Empire and the Corsairs. If you don't understand their perspective God knows how 'you understand the Barbary Pirates':hehe:

It is you who has missed the point. Slavery is still rife in this world and always has been. Even today we have acts of genocide.

But rather than looking to see how we can rid the world of such hate its best we target statues of long since dead individuals,who have no impact whatsoever on todays world.

[jon1959]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

There absolutely were slaves in the UK.

By the mid 18th century, London had the largest African population in Britain, made up of free and enslaved people, as well as many runaways. The total number may have been about 10,000. Owners of African slaves in England would advertise slave-sales and rewards for the recapture of runaways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Britain#:~:text=However%20actual%20("de%20facto",indentured%20servants%20while%20in%20Britain.

[Rjk]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

My mind is open to you explaining what will be achieved by this statue being pulled down?

Clearly you don't have to go back very far in history before more or less everyone was openly associated with things that we would find extremely distasteful these days.
So where do you stop you might ask?
Do you pull don the pyramids, because wilst they weren't built by slaves they were built as memorials to people who certainly owned slaves.
No of course we wouldn't.
So why do some monuments get this treatment and others not?

I think it basically comes down to what the monument says about us as a society, as to whether we keep it or not, not whether the person depicted had no faults throughout their life.

If a person like Colston becomes basically only well known in this day and age for their links to slavery then it says more about us as a society if we still want to keep the statue, whereas there may be other people who are famous for great deeds, but who also had some links to slavery for example, but because that aspect of their life isn't what the statue represents then it is more appropriate to keep it, perhaps at least acknowledging all aspects of their character.

Another good example is Captain Oates - of the Scott Expedition. His honest bravery is famous in more than jut this country, and there are several memorials to him. However, it isn't very well known that as a man in his 20s he got an 11 year old girl pregnant and then refused to support her or the child in any way. If this knowledge became much more widely known and he became famous for this dastardly behaviour then it would be entirely apropriate to remove the memorials.

[Feedback]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

By the mid 18th century, London had the largest African population in Britain, made up of free and enslaved people, as well as many runaways. The total number may have been about 10,000. Owners of African slaves in England would advertise slave-sales and rewards for the recapture of runaways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Britain#:~:text=However%20actual%20("de%20facto",indentured%20servants%20while%20in%20Britain.

Who said there wasn't?

Again, what has been said was that slavery was never legal in the UK.

[Feedback]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

Clearly you don't have to go back very far in history before more or less everyone was openly associated with things that we would find extremely distasteful these days.
So where do you stop you might ask?
Do you pull don the pyramids, because wilst they weren't built by slaves they were built as memorials to people who certainly owned slaves.
No of course we wouldn't.
So why do some monuments get this treatment and others not?

I think it basically comes down to what the monument says about us as a society, as to whether we keep it or not, not whether the person depicted had no faults throughout their life.

this is a good point, but was Colston a bad person in the 17th century context? And if so, why is Colston considered to be bad, but Imhotep and the Pharoahs he served considered to be not as bad? They both believed it was acceptable to own other human beings and each monument is a shrine to them as individuals.

If a person like Colston becomes basically only well known in this day and age for their links to slavery then it says more about us as a society if we still want to keep the statue, whereas there may be other people who are famous for great deeds, but who also had some links to slavery for example, but because that aspect of their life isn't what the statue represents then it is more appropriate to keep it, perhaps at least acknowledging all aspects of their character.

That's the point, outside of Bristol, few had heard of Colston, and even less knew he was part of the slave trade. If anything, most would know that Colston was famous within Bristol, but wouldn't necessarily know why. Given his statue was not erected to celebrate slavery, but to commemorate all that he did for Bristol, there's a degree of revisionism to now say its glorifying slavery.

Another good example is Captain Oates - of the Scott Expedition. His honest bravery is famous in more than jut this country, and there are several memorials to him. However, it isn't very well known that as a man in his 20s he got an 11 year old girl pregnant and then refused to support her or the child in any way. If this knowledge became much more widely known and he became famous for this dastardly behaviour then it would be entirely apropriate to remove the memorials.

I never knew that, but would say that around that time, maybe just after, were laws brought in to protect those aged 12 and under from such behaviour. so it may be that we look back with contempt at such behaviour, but at that time, it wasn't uncommon for men to have relationships with what is, lets face it, prepubescent girls.

edit: after googling, the age of consent was raised from 12 to 13 to 16 in a period of about 20 years at the tail end of the 19th century.

[UNDERHILL1927]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

It annoys people like you. It makes people like you feel uncomfortable. It empowers people who are genuinely opposed to racism and bigotry. It opens up more debate and discussion about the issue of racism. It signals to the racists and bigots that they won’t get things all their own way. It demonstrates that society is changing. It highlights changes in attitudes. It suggests the past is less important than the future. But most of all it annoys people like you.

None of these things make an enormous difference in themselves - not BLM, not tearing down statues, not anti-racism demonstrations, not Kick It Out, not taking the knee, etc. But all of them demonstrate a steady societal shift and all of them annoy people like you, so they all have value.

👏👏👏

[jon1959]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

Who said there wasn't?

Again, what has been said was that slavery was never legal in the UK.

What you said was 'Slavery has never been legal in the UK, not since the time of Vortigern.' There may have been court cases in the late 16th and 18th centuries that concluded slavery was not recognised by English law at the time - but if not legal at that point it wasn't illegal either. Which is why there were tens of thousands of slaves in 'the UK' up until about 1800. And why pick on Vortigern? Saxon, Viking, native Irish and medieval Welsh societies all had slaves - under a whole range of different legal systems and all long after Vortigern, before you get to early modern Britain and Ireland where de facto slavery of Afro-Carribean and American black people continued for centuries.

You seem to be determined to deflect from the purpose and impact of the BLM movement but are picking on the flimsiest excuses.

[The Lone Gunman]

Re: BLM - Will you boo ?

we as in society. keep up at the back

Which society? When I joined this conversation, you were talking about the Colston statue in Bristol. Then, for no apparent reason, you chose to bring structures in Italy, Greece and Mexico into the equation. Then you asked where do we stop?

So were you talking about British society? Or Italian society? Or Greek society? Or Mexican society? Or did you mean to say mankind?