Palestine Israel

[surge]

Re: Palestine Israel

On page 2 of this thread Feedback posted:

"the arabs have invaded israel twice in the past 60 years, and twice have had their arses handed to them on a plate. At some point they will learn not to **** with the IDF"

It's possible that they were having a bad moment but several posts now from them have been about "being aware of our own bias" or "think critically about 'evidence'" we see online, which is all very noble, but a significant change in tone. They've also spent 9 messages questioning evidence of encroachment into Palestinian land only to post that it's common knowledge in their 10th post on the subject.

Again a very noble change in direction, but what should we really be focusing on instead?

The Web Editor of Jewish News posted this yesterday: https://twitter.com/Mendelpol/status...98089231626243

Israel and Hamas have a ceasefire. The next morning, Israel reportedly storms Al Aqsa, which was the trigger for the last 11 days of brutal violence.

I honestly despair

....

I can't help but think more violence would be beneficial for Benjamin Netanyahu's bid to cling on to power - and it would probably be beneficial for Hamas too - who if they ever did have to face a PA election, have multiple wars where they have not been defeated

Ultimately, whatever the governments in Israel and Palestine think they can get out of this - there are lots of dead people who probably disagree it was worth it. Including dead children, who did nothing to deserve their fate. Time for some moral leadership..

....

I tell you what's exhausting..

The predictable knee-jerk response to this, every single time.

Who cares who started this? Israel routinely now goes onto Temple Mt enflaming tension. Worshipers routinely provoke, and are incited.

Nobody wins, regardless of 'who started it'

'Who started it'? The same people who benefit from it. Extremists.

Aa terror organisation running Gaza telling people to engage in a 'day of rage', and a maniacal PM in Israel, facing corruption charges, who wants to prolong conflict for political gain

The eyes of the world are turning to something else but they really shouldn't be. If Hamas claim the only time the plight of Palestine is paid attention to is with rockets and Israeli government say they're under threat of violence can we say either is lying? But the Israeli government responds to that threat in an oppressive and hardline way in moments of ceasefire, and progress can only be made when attention is paid in times of relative peace.

[Rjk]

Re: Palestine Israel

Thats because the British would be firing on British citizens if they did that.

but if they'd identified IRA leaders in a tower block across the border in Ireland you'd be ok with it?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Palestine Israel

What about the tunnels, the kidnappings, the rockets? How does Israel defend against those?

Get america to give them money to shoot down the mostly feeble rockets fired against them

Mossad kidnaps Palestinians, Palestinians kidnap Israelis

Pay for better anti tunneling detection equipment , they have lots of money

If I moved into someone's house I would be prepared for them to be pissed off for a very very long time

[Feedback]

Re: Palestine Israel

but if they'd identified IRA leaders in a tower block across the border in Ireland you'd be ok with it?

You're creating a strawman and I'm not getting involved

[Feedback]

Re: Palestine Israel

Get america to give them money to shoot down the mostly feeble rockets fired against them

Mossad kidnaps Palestinians, Palestinians kidnap Israelis

Pay for better anti tunneling detection equipment , they have lots of money

If I moved into someone's house I would be prepared for them to be pissed off for a very very long time

Thats marriage for you

[Feedback]

Re: Palestine Israel

On page 2 of this thread Feedback posted:

"the arabs have invaded israel twice in the past 60 years, and twice have had their arses handed to them on a plate. At some point they will learn not to **** with the IDF"

It's possible that they were having a bad moment but several posts now from them have been about "being aware of our own bias" or "think critically about 'evidence'" we see online, which is all very noble, but a significant change in tone. They've also spent 9 messages questioning evidence of encroachment into Palestinian land only to post that it's common knowledge in their 10th post on the subject.

Again a very noble change in direction, but what should we really be focusing on instead?

The Web Editor of Jewish News posted this yesterday: https://twitter.com/Mendelpol/status...98089231626243



The eyes of the world are turning to something else but they really shouldn't be. If Hamas claim the only time the plight of Palestine is paid attention to is with rockets and Israeli government say they're under threat of violence can we say either is lying? But the Israeli government responds to that threat in an oppressive and hardline way in moments of ceasefire, and progress can only be made when attention is paid in times of relative peace.

My position hasn't changed. It's a cluster**** of a shitshow with neither side preparedto back down.

I agree it's a bit one sided but it's easy to say Israel should show restraint when you're sat here in the relative safety of the UK.

Israel has a right to defend itself and its citizens. If Hamas didn't kidnap and/or fire rockets then Israel would have no (legitimate) reason.

I dont know what the answer is, maybe a single state where all races and religions have equal status protected by law.

Until they both learn to get along, things will continue and people on both sides will be killed

[chrisp_1927]

Re: Palestine Israel

Got no time for the settlers and settlements whatsoever. But a few people seem to want to suggest that the whole state of Israel is on stolen land, which is quite frankly bollocks. Let's not pretend that all the hatred towards them from their neighbours is down to settlements and continued encroachment. Ham's and Hezbollah hate them because they are Jews, and because they exist as Jews. Criticism of the excesses of the Israeli right is completely justified, but to many like Sludge go for crass generalisations that attempt to deligitimise the whole country

[life on mars]

Re: Palestine Israel

I'd like to know why we haven't had the same debate and rage about Turkeys incursion into Northern Iraq and the twenty thousand deaths including women and children, thousands March in cities around the world because of Israel incursions and actions ,anyone explain why there is a disproportionate outrage?

Plus China incursions.

Plus Russian incursions.

It's fairly clear folk hate the Israelis and Jews.

[surge]

Re: Palestine Israel

I have received more Anti-Semitic hatred and abuse this week than at any other time in my life. In London and New York Anti-Semitic attacks have taken place & the Jewish community feels deeply unsafe. I stand against antisemitism. Stand with me. Stand with us. Racism is racism.

https://twitter.com/JolyonRubs/statu...35181799256065

Obviously anti-Semitism is awful and should be challenged. Though the protests seen have appeared to be under one banner there are going to be some rotters in attendance who move in very different circles and have their own agenda.

[chrisp_1927]

Re: Palestine Israel

I'd like to know why we haven't had the same debate and rage about Turkeys incursion into Northern Iraq and the twenty thousand deaths including women and children, thousands March in cities around the world because of Israel incursions and actions ,anyone explain why there is a disproportionate outrage?

Plus China incursions.

Plus Russian incursions.

It's fairly clear folk hate the Israelis and Jews.

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. There are so many great things about Israel, its a lively democracy and home to fantastic world beating cities like Tel aviv. I hold them to a higher standard than Turkey and China, and I hope that they start to behave a bit better in lots of areas

[surge]

Re: Palestine Israel

I'd like to know why we haven't had the same debate and rage about Turkeys incursion into Northern Iraq and the twenty thousand deaths including women and children, thousands March in cities around the world because of Israel incursions and actions ,anyone explain why there is a disproportionate outrage?

Plus China incursions.

Plus Russian incursions.

It's fairly clear folk hate the Israelis and Jews.

I have put forward a possible answer earlier on...

Significant parts of the history of Europe is how badly Jewish people were treated (Nazism is a tiny part of it) which i) emboldened the want for security of own state but also ii) makes the creation of that state feel like an extended part of European history.

The UK was heavily involved in the area we now know as Israel/Palestine and hasty exit helped create the vacuum for an ugly conflict between the two nations. Therefore creation of Israel and following conflict is part of the UK's history.

The UK is close allies with the USA which is an extremely close ally of Israel. Therefore Israel is part of the UK's ongoing international relations.

Does Turkey and Iraq have such historical and current prominence to Europe and the UK? Regardless, I think for the most those concerned with ongoing treatment (it doesn't end with ceasefire) of Palestinian people are concerned with the behaviour rather than the flags involved so would welcome a thread on the subjects you raised. I'll meet you there if you want to start one?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Palestine Israel

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. There are so many great things about Israel, its a lively democracy and home to fantastic world beating cities like Tel aviv. I hold them to a higher standard than Turkey and China, and I hope that they start to behave a bit better in lots of areas

Behaving better such as not killing kids

I mean even the most precise of weapons feck up once in a while but this has been going on for years

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Palestine Israel

Got no time for the settlers and settlements whatsoever. But a few people seem to want to suggest that the whole state of Israel is on stolen land, which is quite frankly bollocks. Let's not pretend that all the hatred towards them from their neighbours is down to settlements and continued encroachment. Ham's and Hezbollah hate them because they are Jews, and because they exist as Jews. Criticism of the excesses of the Israeli right is completely justified, but to many like Sludge go for crass generalisations that attempt to deligitimise the whole country

I think moving in hundreds of thousands of people from America, Russia , Australia into lands previously occupied by the Palestinians, all because its , according to the Jews, their homeland ........its all utter horse shit this religion nonsense ......is only going to end one way

Why isn't Palestine a legitimate country ?

Why does Israel have a right to exist .....and expand ....but the Palestinians are left to suffer ?

There is one rule for Israel and another for everybody else

Thank god for the moderate Jewish community in Israel and all around the world who are outraged by the continual muscle flexing of Benyamin and his acolytes

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Palestine Israel

if Israel is such a lively democracy how come its been accused of breaking the Geneva convention so many times and has been investigated for war crimes ?

[chrisp_1927]

Re: Palestine Israel

I think moving in hundreds of thousands of people from America, Russia , Australia into lands previously occupied by the Palestinians, all because its , according to the Jews, their homeland ........its all utter horse shit this religion nonsense ......is only going to end one way

Why isn't Palestine a legitimate country ?

Why does Israel have a right to exist .....and expand ....but the Palestinians are left to suffer ?

There is one rule for Israel and another for everybody else

Thank god for the moderate Jewish community in Israel and all around the world who are outraged by the continual muscle flexing of Benyamin and his acolytes

I won't disagree that there should be a country of Palestine. I think the Israelis should give up the illegal settlements in order for that to happen. But Israel was under attack long before it started the creeping settlement programme. The threats to Israel won't go away if/when they give up the settlements.
I'm happy to disagree with settlement building and I'm happy to disagree with their recent bombing of gaza .

Not prepared to swallow bullshit like the idea that Hamas rockets are just big fireworks, or that Hamas only dislike Israel because of settlements. To believe that requires you to infantilise the Palestinians and to completely disregard what the likes of Hamas and Islamic jihad declare themselves.