Palestine Israel

[ToTaL ITK]

Re: Palestine Israel

food for thought

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Palestine Israel

I won't disagree that there should be a country of Palestine. I think the Israelis should give up the illegal settlements in order for that to happen. But Israel was under attack long before it started the creeping settlement programme. The threats to Israel won't go away if/when they give up the settlements.
I'm happy to disagree with settlement building and I'm happy to disagree with their recent bombing of gaza .

Not prepared to swallow bullshit like the idea that Hamas rockets are just big fireworks, or that Hamas only dislike Israel because of settlements. To believe that requires you to infantilise the Palestinians and to completely disregard what the likes of Hamas and Islamic jihad declare themselves.

well the rockets fired by Hamas are hardly the 2021 high precision stuff Israel has

Jews and Arabs have lived side by side for hundreds of years in Iraq , Iran , Syria

Since the creation of Israel its all gone ties up

And since the increasing settlement encroachment its escalated

Its all bullshit based on cobblers written in the bible

Its 2021 and its still going on

Its never going to end

[BLUEAWAY]

Re: Palestine Israel

I’ll admit I don’t have enough knowledge of the subject to fully back up my thoughts but what Israel is doing to Palestine, on the face of it is bloody awful.

It does seem to me that the Palestinian’s don’t help themselves by sparking some tensions but Israel do look like bully boys.

I don’t understand how the world leaders are not issuing comments or sanctions as they would if it was another country.

If Israel stopped bullying Palestine and the Palestinians got more of their land back would Palestine then stop funding and supporting terrorism. would, could a Palestinian government rid the world of Hamas or would it simply move operations to another destination?

[Feedback]

Re: Palestine Israel

well the rockets fired by Hamas are hardly the 2021 high precision stuff Israel has

Jews and Arabs have lived side by side for hundreds of years in Iraq , Iran , Syria

Since the creation of Israel its all gone ties up

And since the increasing settlement encroachment its escalated

Its all bullshit based on cobblers written in the bible

Its 2021 and its still going on

Its never going to end

They haven't lived side by side peacefully though sludge. The Jews have been expelled from the Levant on numerous occasions, either by various caliphates, the Christians or the Ottomans.

Stop trying to rewrite history.

[AfricanBluebird]

Re: Palestine Israel

if Israel is such a lively democracy how come its been accused of breaking the Geneva convention so many times and has been investigated for war crimes ?

This is a good point sludge.

Just because a government is democratically elected doesn't mean that country demonstrates the virtues and standards that are globally, rightly or wrongly, expected by a 'lively democracy'.

'Capatalist democracy' isn't a panacea for how countries should be run.

I understand that in the UK, we are kinda in a glass house here though.

[Feedback]

Re: Palestine Israel

well the rockets fired by Hamas are hardly the 2021 high precision stuff Israel has

Jews and Arabs have lived side by side for hundreds of years in Iraq , Iran , Syria

Since the creation of Israel its all gone ties up

And since the increasing settlement encroachment its escalated

Its all bullshit based on cobblers written in the bible

Its 2021 and its still going on

Its never going to end

Between 1940-1970 over 800k Jews had to leave Arab controlled lands. Quite a few settled in Israel.

Prior to this time many Arab lands were controlled by the French and British, and Jews could live peacefully. Following pan Arab nationalism, many Jews were expelled, being forced to leave their property. This has happened within living memory.

When you consider that throughout history the Jews have been expelled more times than you would care to count (believe it or not Jews were expelled by General Grant from a few border states in the US Civil War)., it comes as no surprise that the Jews want a place they can call their home. It should also come as no surprise that many Jews don't trust the Arabs, a group of people who have persecuted the Jews in recent times, invaded their nation twice and, for a sizeable proportion of the Arab nation, wish to see Israel removed from existence.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Palestine Israel

Between 1940-1970 over 800k Jews had to leave Arab controlled lands. Quite a few settled in Israel.

Prior to this time many Arab lands were controlled by the French and British, and Jews could live peacefully. Following pan Arab nationalism, many Jews were expelled, being forced to leave their property. This has happened within living memory.

When you consider that throughout history the Jews have been expelled more times than you would care to count (believe it or not Jews were expelled by General Grant from a few border states in the US Civil War)., it comes as no surprise that the Jews want a place they can call their home. It should also come as no surprise that many Jews don't trust the Arabs, a group of people who have persecuted the Jews in recent times, invaded their nation twice and, for a sizeable proportion of the Arab nation, wish to see Israel removed from existence.

Religion

All bollocks

[AfricanBluebird]

Re: Palestine Israel

Of course Palestine should be recognised as a separate country.

However, people are deluded if they think Hamas or Israel really want that

The Palestinian people do as does most of the world... But Israel and Hamas do not, despite their counter narrative.

Think about it... If Israel and the rest of the world recognise Palestine as a sovereign state, then the persecution and crimes against Palestinians will then be war crimes. Currently, as silly as it sounds, they are not defined by international law as war crimes.

I clashed with an evangelical conservative Christian about it this morning, who stormed out of the gym we were using. Batshit crazy. Their belief is tied up with the physical return of Jesus (from the clouds), the last days and the destruction of Israel. Theology that has only existed for a few hundred years. No serious theologian takes seriously apart from untrained born again Christian pastors and followers.

So add 'end times' into the mix and you have some very strong feelings

Interestingly, these views were held by a hell of a lot of people in the Trump administration.

[chrisp_1927]

Re: Palestine Israel

well the rockets fired by Hamas are hardly the 2021 high precision stuff Israel has

Jews and Arabs have lived side by side for hundreds of years in Iraq , Iran , Syria

Since the creation of Israel its all gone ties up

And since the increasing settlement encroachment its escalated

Its all bullshit based on cobblers written in the bible

Its 2021 and its still going on

Its never going to end

Lots has gone tits up since the creation of Israel. That doesn't mean it was allndown to their bad behaviour though, some was but lots was down to the fact that the Muslim population were taught to hate jews.

I may be wrong, but it seems a bit like you have as much of a problem with the existence of Israel, as you do with their actions.
As for the religion is bollocks idea. Well again I'm 100 % in agreement with you. Only problem is , you seem to use that as a cop out for any bad behaviour from the Arab side. Then zero in again on any Israeli aggression.

[chrisp_1927]

Re: Palestine Israel

Of course Palestine should be recognised as a separate country.

However, people are deluded if they think Hamas or Israel really want that

The Palestinian people do as does most of the world... But Israel and Hamas do not, despite their counter narrative.

Think about it... If Israel and the rest of the world recognise Palestine as a sovereign state, then the persecution and crimes against Palestinians will then be war crimes. Currently, as silly as it sounds, they are not defined by international law as war crimes.

I clashed with an evangelical conservative Christian about it this morning, who stormed out of the gym we were using. Batshit crazy. Their belief is tied up with the physical return of Jesus (from the clouds), the last days and the destruction of Israel. Theology that has only been interrupted that way for a few hundred years and no theologian takes seriously.

So add 'end times' into the mix and you have some very strong feelings

Interestingly, these views were held by a hell of a lot of people in the Trump administration.

Very strange generalisation there.

Hamas don't want 2 States- you're correct there

Palestinian people do want 2 states - incorrect, many of them do want 2 states . But many are happy to support the Hamas agenda. They want to exterminate the Jews rather than have them next door.

Israel doesn't- incorrect
many in Israel do. In much the same way as many Palestinians do. In fact with both Israelis and Palestinians, it tends to depend on when the poll is taken. The extreme right of Israelis, and people like Netanyahu who enable them don't want 2 states. So if by Israel, you meant the current Israeli government you would be correct.

As for the counter narrative. There is very little from Hamas that has ever even pretended they would support a 2 state solution. The odd quote has suggested they would accept a long term ceasefire with an Israeli state. Their manifesto continues to call for the destruction of the 'zionist entity' however.

I'm a bit more optimistic than most about the potential for a settlement.

To stay in the spirit of crass generalisation:

Both sides are losing the support that allows them to behave badly.

Many of the Arab states have grown sick and tired of the Palestinians . They see that they are willing to live in shit conditions as long as they think they have a possibility of exterminating the Jews . They see that the Palestinians are more interested in destroying Israel than improving their own lot. Qatar and the UAE have both reprimanded Hamas for the rockets this time. Development funding is going to be linked to Hamas behaving better.

As for the extreme right-wing Israelis. They decided to cosy up to Trump. By doing that they have burned a hell of a lot of moderate bridges in the US. Defensive Israeli capabilities will still be supported. But I think the Israeli right now know that they can't count on complete US support for everything they do. Biden has been clear on this, and many in the Democrats have been even more forthright. Hopefully the next 4 or 8 years will see a rolling back of settlements and some concrete pullbacks from East Jerusalem

[AfricanBluebird]

Re: Palestine Israel

Very strange generalisation there.

Hamas don't want 2 States- you're correct there

Palestinian people do want 2 states - incorrect, many of them do want 2 states . But many are happy to support the Hamas agenda. They want to exterminate the Jews rather than have them next door.

Israel doesn't- incorrect
many in Israel do. In much the same way as many Palestinians do. In fact with both Israelis and Palestinians, it tends to depend on when the poll is taken. The extreme right of Israelis, and people like Netanyahu who enable them don't want 2 states. So if by Israel, you meant the current Israeli government you would be correct.

As for the counter narrative. There is very little from Hamas that has ever even pretended they would support a 2 state solution. The odd quote has suggested they would accept a long term ceasefire with an Israeli state. Their manifesto continues to call for the destruction of the 'zionist entity' however.

I'm a bit more optimistic than most about the potential for a settlement.

To stay in the spirit of crass generalisation:

Both sides are losing the support that allows them to behave badly.

Many of the Arab states have grown sick and tired of the Palestinians . They see that they are willing to live in shit conditions as long as they think they have a possibility of exterminating the Jews . They see that the Palestinians are more interested in destroying Israel than improving their own lot. Qatar and the UAE have both reprimanded Hamas for the rockets this time. Development funding is going to be linked to Hamas behaving better.

As for the extreme right-wing Israelis. They decided to cosy up to Trump. By doing that they have burned a hell of a lot of moderate bridges in the US. Defensive Israeli capabilities will still be supported. But I think the Israeli right now know that they can't count on complete US support for everything they do. Biden has been clear on this, and many in the Democrats have been even more forthright. Hopefully the next 4 or 8 years will see a rolling back of settlements and some concrete pullbacks from East Jerusalem

You've made as many generalisations as me.
The surrounding Arab nations never cared about Palestinians as people, they helped keep them poor and therefore angry at Israel as pawns for their anti- Israeli agenda. Israel's continued illegal encroachment is perhaps a land grab before they are forced to stop, so grabbing as much as possible to use in future negotiations.

However, your last paragraph is, on my more positive days, something I agreement .. a hopeful solution. Support for israel's actions is waining and Hamas are gaining no friends. But Israel have to roll back the settlements and Hamas has to be dismantled for peace to ever work.

[chrisp_1927]

Re: Palestine Israel

You've made as many generalisations as me.
The surrounding Arab nations never cared about Palestinians as people, they helped keep them poor and therefore angry at Israel as pawns for their anti- Israeli agenda. Israel's continued illegal encroachment is perhaps a land grab before they are forced to stop, so grabbing as much as possible to use in future negotiations.

However, your last paragraph is, on my more positive days, something I agreement .. a hopeful solution. Support for israel's actions is waining and Hamas are gaining no friends. But Israel have to roll back the settlements and Hamas has to be dismantled for peace to ever work.

Hopefully it will start falling into place. Before this kick off, Israel were only days away from a coalition that got rid of Netanyahu and that also included the Arab parties. Israel pulling out of settlements and East Jerusalem needs to happen soon.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Palestine Israel

Lots has gone tits up since the creation of Israel. That doesn't mean it was allndown to their bad behaviour though, some was but lots was down to the fact that the Muslim population were taught to hate jews.

I may be wrong, but it seems a bit like you have as much of a problem with the existence of Israel, as you do with their actions.
As for the religion is bollocks idea. Well again I'm 100 % in agreement with you. Only problem is , you seem to use that as a cop out for any bad behaviour from the Arab side. Then zero in again on any Israeli aggression.

No , the Palestinians are hemmed in and are fighting back

I would do the same

[Tuerto]

Re: Palestine Israel

Between 1940-1970 over 800k Jews had to leave Arab controlled lands. Quite a few settled in Israel.

Prior to this time many Arab lands were controlled by the French and British, and Jews could live peacefully. Following pan Arab nationalism, many Jews were expelled, being forced to leave their property. This has happened within living memory.

When you consider that throughout history the Jews have been expelled more times than you would care to count (believe it or not Jews were expelled by General Grant from a few border states in the US Civil War)., it comes as no surprise that the Jews want a place they can call their home. It should also come as no surprise that many Jews don't trust the Arabs, a group of people who have persecuted the Jews in recent times, invaded their nation twice and, for a sizeable proportion of the Arab nation, wish to see Israel removed from existence.

So the question is, do you think that Israel is justified in what it is-has done in annexing Palestinian land, and forcing palestinians out of their homes? It's enough to understand why this situation has arisen, but do you think it's justified?

[Tuerto]

Re: Palestine Israel

Religion

All bollocks

It's not that simple, is it?