Palestine Israel

[chrisp_1927]

Re: Palestine Israel

There are some radicals in this new coalition, but it's a lot more representative than the stitch ups that benji used to cobble together. The settlement expanders also can't hide in the background now. Under Netanyahu (especially in trumps term) they could push their agenda and gain big concessions at coalition forming time, then retreat into the shadows and watch someone else do their dirty work.


Bennett, Lieberman and Abbas aren't my cup of tea, but they are pragmatists and they will negotiate. Yair Lapid has a tough job to keep it all on track. Hopefully Bennett doesn't try to tear the coalition apart towards the end of his 2 years as Pm.


Of course, thank f*ck that Israel is well defended. Because let's be honest, if this Israel coalition can work constructively with an Arab party. Hamas and Islamic jihad will do whatever they can to mess it up via terrorism. If at any stage it looks like the Israeli government want to start exploring another peace strategy, then hamas and IJ will probably attempt to start another suicide bombing campaign.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Palestine Israel

There are some radicals in this new coalition, but it's a lot more representative than the stitch ups that benji used to cobble together. The settlement expanders also can't hide in the background now. Under Netanyahu (especially in trumps term) they could push their agenda and gain big concessions at coalition forming time, then retreat into the shadows and watch someone else do their dirty work.


Bennett, Lieberman and Abbas aren't my cup of tea, but they are pragmatists and they will negotiate. Yair Lapid has a tough job to keep it all on track. Hopefully Bennett doesn't try to tear the coalition apart towards the end of his 2 years as Pm.


Of course, thank f*ck that Israel is well defended. Because let's be honest, if this Israel coalition can work constructively with an Arab party. Hamas and Islamic jihad will do whatever they can to mess it up via terrorism. If at any stage it looks like the Israeli government want to start exploring another peace strategy, then hamas and IJ will probably attempt to start another suicide bombing campaign.

Can't people see that all this will never end

They will still be fighting in 500 years

[jon1959]

Re: Palestine Israel

There are some radicals in this new coalition, but it's a lot more representative than the stitch ups that benji used to cobble together. The settlement expanders also can't hide in the background now. Under Netanyahu (especially in trumps term) they could push their agenda and gain big concessions at coalition forming time, then retreat into the shadows and watch someone else do their dirty work.


Bennett, Lieberman and Abbas aren't my cup of tea, but they are pragmatists and they will negotiate. Yair Lapid has a tough job to keep it all on track. Hopefully Bennett doesn't try to tear the coalition apart towards the end of his 2 years as Pm.


Of course, thank f*ck that Israel is well defended. Because let's be honest, if this Israel coalition can work constructively with an Arab party. Hamas and Islamic jihad will do whatever they can to mess it up via terrorism. If at any stage it looks like the Israeli government want to start exploring another peace strategy, then hamas and IJ will probably attempt to start another suicide bombing campaign.

The coalition only has opposition to Netanyahu to hold it together, and has stated already that it will avoid Palestine-Israel conflict issues (though how is a question as they are being played out on the streets of Israeli towns and Jerusalem, as well as the West Bank and Gaza) and focus on basic budget and state service issues. It is totally contradictory and unstable - spanning the centre left to the far right of the Knesset. Unless it morphs quickly into something else - and unless Bennett abandons his expansionist and racist ideology - it must surely collapse fairly soon. It might last long enough for Netanyahu to face the courts again and permanently lose his grip on power - but I doubt much more.

Interesting that you see the main threat to peace in this situation as Hamas - not daily land theft, murder (by occupation forces and/or settlers - who seem to work hand in glove), detention without trial for hundreds of Palestinian adults and children, destruction of homes, crops and water supplies, apartheid state ideology and policies, elimination by Israel of any territorial basis for a future 2 state solution (still the 'answer' for most of the world), attacks on people wanting to pray at the Al Aqsa mosque, continuing blockade of Gaza (with Egypt) and the aftermath of a 'mowing the grass' campaign to destroy homes, hospitals, schools, the only Covid vaccination centre and much else in Gaza - alongside some Hamas military targets.

Hamas is an authoritarian, often brutal and contradictory organisation - but it was formed in response to Israeli aggression against Palestinians and is democratically elected. It is certainly part of the problem - and may have committed war crimes with its rocket attacks on civilian targets - but any provocations or crimes that come from Hamas are dwarfed by those of Israel. David v Goliath and David is a Palestinian!

[chrisp_1927]

Re: Palestine Israel

The coalition only has opposition to Netanyahu to hold it together, and has stated already that it will avoid Palestine-Israel conflict issues (though how is a question as they are being played out on the streets of Israeli towns and Jerusalem, as well as the West Bank and Gaza) and focus on basic budget and state service issues. It is totally contradictory and unstable - spanning the centre left to the far right of the Knesset. Unless it morphs quickly into something else - and unless Bennett abandons his expansionist and racist ideology - it must surely collapse fairly soon. It might last long enough for Netanyahu to face the courts again and permanently lose his grip on power - but I doubt much more.

Interesting that you see the main threat to peace in this situation as Hamas - not daily land theft, murder (by occupation forces and/or settlers - who seem to work hand in glove), detention without trial for hundreds of Palestinian adults and children, destruction of homes, crops and water supplies, apartheid state ideology and policies, elimination by Israel of any territorial basis for a future 2 state solution (still the 'answer' for most of the world), attacks on people wanting to pray at the Al Aqsa mosque, continuing blockade of Gaza (with Egypt) and the aftermath of a 'mowing the grass' campaign to destroy homes, hospitals, schools, the only Covid vaccination centre and much else in Gaza - alongside some Hamas military targets.

Hamas is an authoritarian, often brutal and contradictory organisation - but it was formed in response to Israeli aggression against Palestinians and is democratically elected. It is certainly part of the problem - and may have committed war crimes with its rocket attacks on civilian targets - but any provocations or crimes that come from Hamas are dwarfed by those of Israel. David v Goliath and David is a Palestinian!

Thats a very one sided view you give there. A quick read of just the charter of Hamas, and a very quick Google of Hamas shows very different

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Re: Palestine Israel

Thats a very one sided view you give there. A quick read of just the charter of Hamas, and a very quick Google of Hamas shows very different

Guess which country has broken the Geneva Convention more than just a few times

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Re: Palestine Israel

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

Amnesty

[chrisp_1927]

Re: Palestine Israel

Guess which country has broken the Geneva Convention more than just a few times

I've got no intention of making excuses for the bad behaviour of the Israelis. Have a bit of an issue with those who defend the suicide bombers of Hamas and Islamic jihad though

[life on mars]

Re: Palestine Israel

I've got no intention of making excuses for the bad behaviour of the Israelis. Have a bit of an issue with those who defend the suicide bombers of Hamas and Islamic jihad though

What is also of interest when people point out the disproportional element of it, Hamas and Islamic jihad do not act alone they are backed by very big powerful people and states, in fact if you consider the countries surrounding Israel who want their destruction or been to war with them , we may find that is disproportional.

[jon1959]

Re: Palestine Israel

I've got no intention of making excuses for the bad behaviour of the Israelis. Have a bit of an issue with those who defend the suicide bombers of Hamas and Islamic jihad though

Who has defended suicide bombers of Hamas and Islamic Jihad?

[jon1959]

Re: Palestine Israel

What is also of interest when people point out the disproportional element of it, Hamas and Islamic jihad do not act alone they are backed by very big powerful people and states, in fact if you consider the countries surrounding Israel who want their destruction or been to war with them , we may find that is disproportional.

Israel is a nuclear power (shouldn't be - but is) and has the 16th or 17th most powerful armed forces in the world, and a much higher military budget than many of the other world powers in the top 20. The only regional power that has anything like an equivalent force is Iran. Iran certainly gets some arms into Gaza - but not much. Against that the USA acts as a military guarantor for Israel and along with the EU, UK, Australia, Canada etc provides near full diplomatic cover and deflects all attempts to hold Israel accountable for its actions in the UN or its agencies. None of that - or the other infrastructure of financial, military, diplomatic and propaganda support - applies to the other main powers in the region.

But all that is just a smokescreen thrown up by apologists.

This is not a war of equal protagonists - it is the full might of the Israeli state and its settler vigilantes in daily conflict with civilians, sometimes (if rarely) Palestinian police in the West Bank, stone throwing protestors (hundreds shot dead by IOF snipers) and the military wing of Hamas. Hamas is a brutal, fundamentalist and often oppressive organisation - but it is incapable of 'competing' in any way with the Israeli military. To argue that Israel is on the wrong side of the regional balance of power is to ignore the evidence of death and destruction over the past 70 odd years - a sick league table that demonstrates the imbalance of resources (political and material) and the worth shown by the media and major powers for different lives.

(How long before this thread is moved out of sight?)

[life on mars]

Re: Palestine Israel

Israel is a nuclear power (shouldn't be - but is) and has the 16th or 17th most powerful armed forces in the world, and a much higher military budget than many of the other world powers in the top 20. The only regional power that has anything like an equivalent force is Iran. Iran certainly gets some arms into Gaza - but not much. Against that the USA acts as a military guarantor for Israel and along with the EU, UK, Australia, Canada etc provides near full diplomatic cover and deflects all attempts to hold Israel accountable for its actions in the UN or its agencies. None of that - or the other infrastructure of financial, military, diplomatic and propaganda support - applies to the other main powers in the region.

But all that is just a smokescreen thrown up by apologists.

This is not a war of equal protagonists - it is the full might of the Israeli state and its settler vigilantes in daily conflict with civilians, sometimes (if rarely) Palestinian police in the West Bank, stone throwing protestors (hundreds shot dead by IOF snipers) and the military wing of Hamas. Hamas is a brutal, fundamentalist and often oppressive organisation - but it is incapable of 'competing' in any way with the Israeli military. To argue that Israel is on the wrong side of the regional balance of power is to ignore the evidence of death and destruction over the past 70 odd years - a sick league table that demonstrates the imbalance of resources (political and material) and the worth shown by the media and major powers for different lives.

(How long before this thread is moved out of sight?)

Could Ignore it .

People are allowed a view even if it doesn't fit with yours.

[Rjk]

Re: Palestine Israel

One thing I'm interested in is what the various sides see as an acceptable endpoint.

yes there there are some in Hamas who want the Israeli's to leave the region and return it to a Palestinian state.
Clearly that is not at all practical or even possible.

Other Palestinians (probably the majority) just want to live in viable Palestinian country free from oppression from Israel and its settlers. This is increasingly difficult to see how this could happen, as the remaining pockets of Palestinian land aren't conducive to a functioning economy, even without the economic restrictions.


On the Israeli side there are extremists who want all the land for Israel and for the Palestinians to go away. And again there are the vast majority who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

The two solutions people regularly talk about are the 1 and 2 state solutions.

A 1 state solution whereby all the land is absorbed into Israel has some advantages, as the Palestinian people would be able to participate in an advanced rich country. However, there would be much fear and mistrust of each other on both sides, which would make it very difficult to sell this idea. Also in this larger Israel, the Muslim population would outnumber the Jewish population, and is increasing much more rapidly - so this new country would not be a Jewish nation, or it would have to exist with Arabs as second class citizens unable to vote - OR much of the Arab population would have to be expelled to other countries.
Clearly many Israeli's would never want Israel not to be a Jewish nation, but the other possibilities are abominable.


The 2 state solution is what most Palestinians would prefer, but in order for it to be viable I think Israel would need to scale back significantly its expansions and allow a viable state to develop. I can't see any appetite from Israel to allow that to happen.

Where we are today is in a weird half way house, whereby Israel is expanding its borders and making new settlements, making either solution less feasible.

It seems to me that Israel is benefitting a lot more from maintaining the status quo - as they can expand and still have a Jewish nation, but it surely isn't a situation that can go on indefinitely

[truthpaste]

Re: Palestine Israel

One thing I'm interested in is what the various sides see as an acceptable endpoint.

yes there there are some in Hamas who want the Israeli's to leave the region and return it to a Palestinian state.
Clearly that is not at all practical or even possible.

Other Palestinians (probably the majority) just want to live in viable Palestinian country free from oppression from Israel and its settlers. This is increasingly difficult to see how this could happen, as the remaining pockets of Palestinian land aren't conducive to a functioning economy, even without the economic restrictions.


On the Israeli side there are extremists who want all the land for Israel and for the Palestinians to go away. And again there are the vast majority who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

The two solutions people regularly talk about are the 1 and 2 state solutions.

A 1 state solution whereby all the land is absorbed into Israel has some advantages, as the Palestinian people would be able to participate in an advanced rich country. However, there would be much fear and mistrust of each other on both sides, which would make it very difficult to sell this idea. Also in this larger Israel, the Muslim population would outnumber the Jewish population, and is increasing much more rapidly - so this new country would not be a Jewish nation, or it would have to exist with Arabs as second class citizens unable to vote - OR much of the Arab population would have to be expelled to other countries.
Clearly many Israeli's would never want Israel not to be a Jewish nation, but the other possibilities are abominable.


The 2 state solution is what most Palestinians would prefer, but in order for it to be viable I think Israel would need to scale back significantly its expansions and allow a viable state to develop. I can't see any appetite from Israel to allow that to happen.

Where we are today is in a weird half way house, whereby Israel is expanding its borders and making new settlements, making either solution less feasible.

It seems to me that Israel is benefitting a lot more from maintaining the status quo - as they can expand and still have a Jewish nation, but it surely isn't a situation that can go on indefinitely

You say Israel is benefitting by expanding it's boarders, yet their current boarders are a small fraction of the original land they were given >> Biblical BORDERS OF ISRAEL

Given that Israel are well aware of this, they have shown remarkable restraint!
How would we like it if England were awarded every county of Wales except Cardiff, Newport & the Vale of Glamorgan?

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Re: Palestine Israel

You say Israel is benefitting by expanding it's boarders, yet their current boarders are a small fraction of the original land they were given >> Biblical BORDERS OF ISRAEL

Given that Israel are well aware of this, they have shown remarkable restraint!
How would we like it if England were awarded every county of Wales except Cardiff, Newport & the Vale of Glamorgan?

The bible is the cause of all this bollocks in the first place

[Rjk]

Re: Palestine Israel

You say Israel is benefitting by expanding it's boarders, yet their current boarders are a small fraction of the original land they were given >> Biblical BORDERS OF ISRAEL

Given that Israel are well aware of this, they have shown remarkable restraint!
How would we like it if England were awarded every county of Wales except Cardiff, Newport & the Vale of Glamorgan?

is this a serious post?