Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

[JamesWales]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

You have supported right wing housing policy for years , irrespective of immigration this is a huge part of the problem

It started with Thatcher pushing the right to buy and has never been dealt with

It's no good you crying over something you have defended

The power of the market place eh !

I'm not sure why you view everything on the left/right scale as most people don't, but I can assure you I havent supported a right-wing housing policy for years, and I have no idea what that would be anyway.

I assume you mean total deregulation? (Which isn't any more right than left) Well, I don't. I am okay with the sell out of council houses when I was a child as it was the tenants who bought them and it was one of the few ways that working class people could accumulate wealth. In my experience it's mainly people who themselves accumulated wealth through housing that feel the strongest preventing others. The error, in my opinion was that new ones weren't built.

As for anything else, I think you would have to explain what a "right wing housing policy" is, as I don't.

What I don't support is taking glee at the demand for such housing massively outstripping the supply of them and then not taking seriously those who can barely afford to live anymore.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

I'm not sure why you view everything on the left/right scale as most people don't, but I can assure you I havent supported a right-wing housing policy for years, and I have no idea what that would be anyway.

I assume you mean total deregulation? (Which isn't any more right than left) Well, I don't. I am okay with the sell out of council houses when I was a child as it was the tenants who bought them and it was one of the few ways that working class people could accumulate wealth. In my experience it's mainly people who themselves accumulated wealth through housing that feel the strongest preventing others. The error, in my opinion was that new ones weren't built.

As for anything else, I think you would have to explain what a "right wing housing policy" is, as I don't.

What I don't support is taking glee at the demand for such housing massively outstripping the supply of them and then not taking seriously those who can barely afford to live anymore.

I am not explaining anything to you , you are a tory boy , now a reform boy and it's you voting in these sort of government's that's the problem

Your nonsense about right to buy is laughable it's a prime mover of the housing crisis yet you defend it then blame immigration

Absolute 😃

[JamesWales]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

I am not explaining anything to you , you are a tory boy , now a reform boy and it's you voting in these sort of government's that's the problem

Your nonsense about right to buy is laughable it's a prime mover of the housing crisis yet you defend it then blame immigration

Absolute 😃

People are still living in those homes Sludge. They aren't empty. They just pay a mortgage instead of rent to the council and the wealth goes to their family.

I agree with you on building far more social housing.

But it doesn't matter on the tenancy. If there are more people than houses you are fkd. Unless you already have your own home.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

People are still living in those homes Sludge. They aren't empty. They just pay a mortgage instead of rent to the council and the wealth goes to their family.

I agree with you on building far more social housing.

But it doesn't matter on the tenancy. If there are more people than houses you are fkd. Unless you already have your own home.

The state provided a huge subsidy to allow people who could probably have afforded a mortgage anyway a house on the cheap

So whilst it was GREAT for those lucky enough to have a council house in the first place , everybody else lost out

You can roll out this oh it helped ordinary people get a home but that's bullshit

Why should a council house , built for those less well off , be sold and taken off the council stock .....and bollocks to everyone else ?

Oh my old man , my aunty , my uncle .....HE bought his house and WE did ok ...

Well that's bollocks

Greedy private landlords bought up many of these former council houses and are sitting on huge profits whilst people scramble for social housing


Stick that up your arris Mr free market , it stinks

And Angela Rayner who criticised tory housing policy but made 200 k profit out of selling the council house she disgracefully bought in the first place can also shove it

It's laughable that the current lack of social housing is lumped on immigration when your lot have been the root cause of it by selling off the country's assets

If we didn't sell the council houses we would have had about 5 million more homes to provide homes for people , irrespective of immigration

Put that in your market led pipe of nonsense and puff away

People who bought their houses out of the freebie council houses bribe are slaves to the market but frack all to do with the problems of social housing

That's the fault of those that sold them ...Thatcher and successive governments ....those that grabbed the bait and bought them ......and the lying governments , mostly tory ....that failed to replace the ones sold

A plague on all their houses , all guilty

[jon1959]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

The Right To Buy wasn't only about selling the better stock at a big discount to those who chose to take advantage.

Yes, their families benefitted. Yes, they initially lived in the property paying a mortgage not a rent.

But a very high % of former Right To Buy homes have been sold on to private landlords (not just in London - all around the country) who now charge 2x/3x/5x the rent that would have been charged under the Council. Those most in need are priced out - or else we all pay through general taxation for the housing benefit that ends up in private landlords' pockets.

The subsidy on the Right To Buy sale didn't come from central government (general taxpayers didn't fund this bonanza) it washed through Council's Housing Revenue Accounts. Councils were generally paying for the cost of housing they built over 60 years (via the Public Works Loans Boards). When the rental income stopped the debt remained. The reduced capital receipt normally didn't cover the remaining debt - so all the other tenants paid for the RTB subsidy through their rents and through reduced improvement and repair services!

And for most of the time the Right To Buy has been in place it has been impossible for Councils with any historic debt to spend on new build housing (or buying existing housing to add to their stock). It was outside the rules. Governments said one thing, but then stopped it happening by the way the housing subsidy system operated. That was a deliberate decision.

It has become possible for a few more Councils to build new housing (small scale - a tiny fraction of what was lost through Right To Buy) when the Self Financing Housing Revenue Account changes came in from 2012. But it really is small scale - and for most of the UK the Right To Buy rules (that have changed over time - and John Prescott came closest to ending it) mean that new home can be lost within a few years and again the Council and its tenants will have to fund a huge discount to the 'lucky' sitting tenant.

The whole system was set up as a cynical way of buying Tory votes on Council estates - and making tenants who didn't or couldn't join the party pay the cost. It also transferred over a million homes from Councils (where rents are too high anyway) to private landlords who often charge multiples of a Council rent - and the rest of us pick up the tab in housing benefits.

The (preserved) Right To Buy also applies to some Housing Associations where there was a past stock transfer from a Council.

It is probably the biggest single contributor over more than four decades to the UK's housing crisis. There is no justification for it as a policy to improve UK housing (in fact many RTB homes that initially got the new door were/are in worse condition than Council homes that have gone through the Decent Homes Programme). It is 100% political and a disaster.

[JamesWales]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

RTB, and other issues are part of the story, and ideologically comfortable ground for you guy, but it's a far far lesser part of the story than adding millions of people more than the dwellings you can provide for them. You are tweaking on the edges and missing the elephant in the room.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

RTB, and other issues are part of the story, and ideologically comfortable ground for you guy, but it's a far far lesser part of the story than adding millions of people more than the dwellings you can provide for them. You are tweaking on the edges and missing the elephant in the room.

The reply above from someone with a background in local authority housing states that the RTB was probably the biggest factor in 4 decades contributing to the housing crisis

You love all that thatcherite crap but selling off council housing was a nightmare for those who needed it yet were not lucky enough to be stiffed money to buy it in the first place ....the worst kind of I am allright jack types imaginable .....I couldn't give a toss that they were paying rent .....so were other tenants worse off .....and those without a place to live saw their chances of even doing that slashed away

But uncle Bert bought his house and that money stayed in OUR family.....so that's OK, WE were hard working so stuff everyone else

You think you know everything but you don't

I know that's hard for you and you will never be able to admit it but that's the way it is

You have been pushing the mantra of right wing politics for ages and now you have a party to vote for

Whilst the current government are absolutely dire I won't be joining you

You would be better off sticking on a union jack t shirt and joining Nigel and his publicity team than waste people's time on here

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

The Right To Buy wasn't only about selling the better stock at a big discount to those who chose to take advantage.

Yes, their families benefitted. Yes, they initially lived in the property paying a mortgage not a rent.

But a very high % of former Right To Buy homes have been sold on to private landlords (not just in London - all around the country) who now charge 2x/3x/5x the rent that would have been charged under the Council. Those most in need are priced out - or else we all pay through general taxation for the housing benefit that ends up in private landlords' pockets.

The subsidy on the Right To Buy sale didn't come from central government (general taxpayers didn't fund this bonanza) it washed through Council's Housing Revenue Accounts. Councils were generally paying for the cost of housing they built over 60 years (via the Public Works Loans Boards). When the rental income stopped the debt remained. The reduced capital receipt normally didn't cover the remaining debt - so all the other tenants paid for the RTB subsidy through their rents and through reduced improvement and repair services!

And for most of the time the Right To Buy has been in place it has been impossible for Councils with any historic debt to spend on new build housing (or buying existing housing to add to their stock). It was outside the rules. Governments said one thing, but then stopped it happening by the way the housing subsidy system operated. That was a deliberate decision.

It has become possible for a few more Councils to build new housing (small scale - a tiny fraction of what was lost through Right To Buy) when the Self Financing Housing Revenue Account changes came in from 2012. But it really is small scale - and for most of the UK the Right To Buy rules (that have changed over time - and John Prescott came closest to ending it) mean that new home can be lost within a few years and again the Council and its tenants will have to fund a huge discount to the 'lucky' sitting tenant.

The whole system was set up as a cynical way of buying Tory votes on Council estates - and making tenants who didn't or couldn't join the party pay the cost. It also transferred over a million homes from Councils (where rents are too high anyway) to private landlords who often charge multiples of a Council rent - and the rest of us pick up the tab in housing benefits.

The (preserved) Right To Buy also applies to some Housing Associations where there was a past stock transfer from a Council.

It is probably the biggest single contributor over more than four decades to the UK's housing crisis. There is no justification for it as a policy to improve UK housing (in fact many RTB homes that initially got the new door were/are in worse condition than Council homes that have gone through the Decent Homes Programme). It is 100% political and a disaster.

I wish I was as eloquent

That's bang on the money

People were getting council houses then as soon as they had lived there for 2 years , buying the bloody thing and then being in a position to make big money

Absolutely appalling greed on the back of what was a state asset to provide housing for those less well off

I had total respect for those tenants with principles who refused to buy their homes and passed them on after their deaths to others who were in desperate need of accommodation

It must have been sickening for hard pressed councils to provide a house for a family who were on the list only to see the greedy selfish gits buy the place just a short time later , as soon as they were able to

They were as bad as Thatcher

[Rjk]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

I think it's an outlier because the only person who is going to win the next election on present evidence is very sadly Nigel Farage


Since the wins at the recent local elections those who wanted a right wing party to vote for now have one and they are consistently on 28 to 30 percent

Easily enough to either form a coalition with the Tories or govern on their own

It's a shocking indictment of Labour , it was always going to be difficult but they should be polling around 30 percent

Trying to look at them from a distance I don't think any of the current labour government appear to be of any substance and they are led by a lump of wet lettuce

Farage is still a long way from being able to win a general election

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

The Right To Buy wasn't only about selling the better stock at a big discount to those who chose to take advantage.

Yes, their families benefitted. Yes, they initially lived in the property paying a mortgage not a rent.

But a very high % of former Right To Buy homes have been sold on to private landlords (not just in London - all around the country) who now charge 2x/3x/5x the rent that would have been charged under the Council. Those most in need are priced out - or else we all pay through general taxation for the housing benefit that ends up in private landlords' pockets.

The subsidy on the Right To Buy sale didn't come from central government (general taxpayers didn't fund this bonanza) it washed through Council's Housing Revenue Accounts. Councils were generally paying for the cost of housing they built over 60 years (via the Public Works Loans Boards). When the rental income stopped the debt remained. The reduced capital receipt normally didn't cover the remaining debt - so all the other tenants paid for the RTB subsidy through their rents and through reduced improvement and repair services!

And for most of the time the Right To Buy has been in place it has been impossible for Councils with any historic debt to spend on new build housing (or buying existing housing to add to their stock). It was outside the rules. Governments said one thing, but then stopped it happening by the way the housing subsidy system operated. That was a deliberate decision.

It has become possible for a few more Councils to build new housing (small scale - a tiny fraction of what was lost through Right To Buy) when the Self Financing Housing Revenue Account changes came in from 2012. But it really is small scale - and for most of the UK the Right To Buy rules (that have changed over time - and John Prescott came closest to ending it) mean that new home can be lost within a few years and again the Council and its tenants will have to fund a huge discount to the 'lucky' sitting tenant.

The whole system was set up as a cynical way of buying Tory votes on Council estates - and making tenants who didn't or couldn't join the party pay the cost. It also transferred over a million homes from Councils (where rents are too high anyway) to private landlords who often charge multiples of a Council rent - and the rest of us pick up the tab in housing benefits.

The (preserved) Right To Buy also applies to some Housing Associations where there was a past stock transfer from a Council.

It is probably the biggest single contributor over more than four decades to the UK's housing crisis. There is no justification for it as a policy to improve UK housing (in fact many RTB homes that initially got the new door were/are in worse condition than Council homes that have gone through the Decent Homes Programme). It is 100% political and a disaster.

Agree completely. Almost everything that has happened as a result could have been forecast.

[JamesWales]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

The reply above from someone with a background in local authority housing states that the RTB was probably the biggest factor in 4 decades contributing to the housing crisis

You love all that thatcherite crap but selling off council housing was a nightmare for those who needed it yet were not lucky enough to be stiffed money to buy it in the first place ....the worst kind of I am allright jack types imaginable .....I couldn't give a toss that they were paying rent .....so were other tenants worse off .....and those without a place to live saw their chances of even doing that slashed away

But uncle Bert bought his house and that money stayed in OUR family.....so that's OK, WE were hard working so stuff everyone else

You think you know everything but you don't

I know that's hard for you and you will never be able to admit it but that's the way it is

You have been pushing the mantra of right wing politics for ages and now you have a party to vote for

Whilst the current government are absolutely dire I won't be joining you

You would be better off sticking on a union jack t shirt and joining Nigel and his publicity team than waste people's time on here

This is such a ridiculous overreach and a straw man argument. Why are you talking about union jack t shirts? 😂

There are a tonne of issues that cause any larger problem such as the housing crisis. That's true. Divorce rates, economic changes, growth of universities, many other things too. No one denies it. The problem here is that some of you are unable (presumably ideologically so) to acknowledge that the massive increase in demand (which all comes from people) is not intrinsincly linked to a massive increase in population which is overwhelmingly derived from high immigration which is on a scale absolutely incomparable to the 80s and 90s which with respect is an era where your politics seemed to stop.

We would probably agree on many things. The need for more social housing, the need for regulation, the need to end build to let, the need to severely restrict air BnB, and many other factors. But until you address the big cause of the spike in demand you are pissing in the wind. And it's other people (not you) getting the piss in their faces through huge rents btw, although we are all paying a lot of their housing benefit collectively too.

The problem with you and Jon just talking about RTB is that while you are right in that i removed nearly a million from the social housing stock (which is bad) it also removed millions from the demand side (which is good). If those houses were back in the social housing mix they would instantly be filled by the people who currently live in them. It's a transfer of ownership that happened. It didn't impact supply and demand, aside from not being used to build new social housing, which I do entirely agree with you on.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

I wish I was as eloquent

That's bang on the money

People were getting council houses then as soon as they had lived there for 2 years , buying the bloody thing and then being in a position to make big money

Absolutely appalling greed on the back of what was a state asset to provide housing for those less well off

I had total respect for those tenants with principles who refused to buy their homes and passed them on after their deaths to others who were in desperate need of accommodation

It must have been sickening for hard pressed councils to provide a house for a family who were on the list only to see the greedy selfish gits buy the place just a short time later , as soon as they were able to

They were as bad as Thatcher

My parents weren’t “greedy selfish gits”. Yes, they were lucky because in 1976 (under a Labour Government and I’m pretty sure a Labour council in Cardiff) my father being made redundant by British Rail coincided with an offer from the council that gave them a chance to buy the council house they were renting for a sum they would never have been able to afford without the redundancy money. There was someone from my family living in that house for the next 42 years until I moved up here and in the block of six houses we lived in three other families took up the offer - one of them were still there when I left and the other two stayed until the parents had passed away some thirty odd years after they’d bought their houses.

None of those families were rich, they just took advantage of what they thought was a generous offer from the council. My father voted Labour all of his life and my mother was a Tory who switched to Labour when she was about thirty after hearing Harold MacMillan tell her she’d never had it so good - they’ll be turning in their graves at being described as being “as bad as Thatcher.”

[jon1959]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

My parents weren’t “greedy selfish gits”. Yes, they were lucky because in 1976 (under a Labour Government and I’m pretty sure a Labour council in Cardiff) my father being made redundant by British Rail coincided with an offer from the council that gave them a chance to buy the council house they were renting for a sum they would never have been able to afford without the redundancy money. There was someone from my family living in that house for the next 42 years until I moved up here and in the block of six houses we lived in three other families took up the offer - one of them were still there when I left and the other two stayed until the parents had passed away some thirty odd years after they’d bought their houses.

None of those families were rich, they just took advantage of what they thought was a generous offer from the council. My father voted Labour all of his life and my mother was a Tory who switched to Labour when she was about thirty after hearing Harold MacMillan tell her she’d never had it so good - they’ll be turning in their graves at being described as being “as bad as Thatcher.”

I wouldn't blame anyone who took advantage of Right To Buy - the fault lies with those who invented and implemented the policy.

But I did know a lot of Council tenants who were proud of being tenants (saw it as a privilege and a right) and refused on political and social grounds to buy their homes. They were a minority. Most would just consider the advantages or disadvantages for themselves and their immediate family.

Good to be reminded that Thatcher didn't invent Right To Buy. It started in 1936; expanded a bit in the late 1950s and 1960s; grew a bit more in the early and mid 1970s (much of that under a Labour Government) but remained small scale and limited until Thatcher turned a small rumble into an earthquake after 1980.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

Farage is still a long way from being able to win a general election

My arse he is

Regular polling ten points above starmer

If he doesn't get over the line himself he will be able to form a coalition with the Tories

People seem to be ignoring what's going on in front of their eyes

Labour and Plaid trounced in Llanelli by Reform yesterday

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

This is such a ridiculous overreach and a straw man argument. Why are you talking about union jack t shirts? ��

There are a tonne of issues that cause any larger problem such as the housing crisis. That's true. Divorce rates, economic changes, growth of universities, many other things too. No one denies it. The problem here is that some of you are unable (presumably ideologically so) to acknowledge that the massive increase in demand (which all comes from people) is not intrinsincly linked to a massive increase in population which is overwhelmingly derived from high immigration which is on a scale absolutely incomparable to the 80s and 90s which with respect is an era where your politics seemed to stop.

We would probably agree on many things. The need for more social housing, the need for regulation, the need to end build to let, the need to severely restrict air BnB, and many other factors. But until you address the big cause of the spike in demand you are pissing in the wind. And it's other people (not you) getting the piss in their faces through huge rents btw, although we are all paying a lot of their housing benefit collectively too.

The problem with you and Jon just talking about RTB is that while you are right in that i removed nearly a million from the social housing stock (which is bad) it also removed millions from the demand side (which is good). If those houses were back in the social housing mix they would instantly be filled by the people who currently live in them. It's a transfer of ownership that happened. It didn't impact supply and demand, aside from not being used to build new social housing, which I do entirely agree with you on.

Absolute rubbish

Jon gives you a leathering and back you pop spouting more rubbish thinking you are some kind of intellectual