Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

[Rjk]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

https://x.com/YouGov/status/1927299701008744781

In other news, trying to work out what/whether British people think becomes harder by the second. Starmer has terrible approval ratings and labour seem to be at low 20s maybe, yet he beats everyone in the above poll. I don't understand what to make of that. I know historically sitting PMs tend to do better than expected but this baffles me.

Not an expert, but to me that suggests there might be a natural limit to how far Farage can go

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

The Labour Party have had nearly a year to start facing the questions regarding migration

The other day the utterly hopeless Yvette Cooper was nailed to the floor by Victoria Derbyshire for dodging the questions regarding numbers , policies etc

It was embarrassing to watch

If she can't come up with specifics to start to deal with people who want fair and reasonable immigration policy and starmer is acting like Norman Tebbit then it's a waste of time you asking ordinary folk on here isn't it ?

So 2 million? 5 million? I am not asking for you to become home secretary, I am just asking you a simple question, at what point would you decide 'hmmm that many people appearing at once isn't going to work'.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

You usually talk sense, Eric - even if I sometimes disagree with the conclusions you draw. But that question is nonsense.

Are you talking economically active or inactive migrants? Migrants who contribute more than they take out or the opposite? Migrants who provide essential public services, or become indispensable to agriculture or the 'hospitality' industry? Migrants who bring skills to the health service or to tech companies? Or migrants who do none of those things?

I don't know what the capacity of the UK is for population growth through inward migration. It is not a simple numbers game. There is clearly pressure on schools, the health service, the transport infrastructure, water and power and other things, but migrants can and do contribute to those services and infrastructure.

If the argument on immigration can be re-directed to economic impacts (pro and con), to the benefits of diversity and moral obligations to families or victims of oppression, to the way we can re-shape our ageing and less productive society and ensure this rich country uses its collective resources to manage progressive and positive changes, then great.

But the argument, the debate, is often around false numbers, cultural conservatism, red top scaremongering and at the fringes outright xenophobia and racism. Starmer has decided to feed that fire - because he is an unprincipled political coward and has no vision or compass.

Appreciate the objectivity Jon. My whole outlook is built upon the simple fact that life is getting shitter in the UK because fixed costs are too high, the largest being housing. I don't really care about the housing ladder, In this sense I only care about the fixed cost of putting a roof over your head. The implications of people having less money to spend spread across the entire economy and eventually society (mental health because of constant worries etc.)

Labour are doing (slowly as the parliamentary system rolls along) some things to address this but not enough imo. To answer your question though, whether economically active or inactive, if you have net migration of a million a year, building 1.5 million houses over 5 years is using a cup to bail water out of your sinking boat. If a doctor turns up or an asylum seeker turns up, they still need somewhere to live.

Completely agree with you that the other death spiral awaiting us is the aging population, which is essentially saying the ratio of working people to those who aren't working is not be enough to sustain existing programs. That is only going to made worse by more and more newly working age people not working which is why the numbers of kids on pip and neet (not my area but we touch upon it) are so alarming. Migration can be an answer to that in specific circumstances but it can't be used to prop up companies paying shit wages and whole sectors can't be reliant on it, it doesn't make us a resilient country.

[jon1959]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

Completely agree Eric.

I didn't mention housing in my post - but I spent most of my working life managing Council housing in Sheffield and it is the most critical factor in ensuring that society - with its ebbs and flows, incomings and outgoings - works.

We need to build and refurbish more homes. We need to stop the regressive Right To Buy system (loading debt on tenants, bleeding resources out of improvement and new build budgets, and creating concentrations of deprivation), stop second homes purchases, and limit the spread of Airbnb. The last two kill communities in rural Britain and ensure that there is no where for workers to live even if we can find workers for farms, restaurants and hotels in the first place. Unjoined-up thinking of the worst type that with the Brexit impacts and Covid disruptions has created social and economic chaos in many places.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

So 2 million? 5 million? I am not asking for you to become home secretary, I am just asking you a simple question, at what point would you decide 'hmmm that many people appearing at once isn't going to work'.

Make something up and I will agree with you

The situation is that Labour are in power and when asked questions as to what they are realistically trying to do regarding immigration and for numbers of crime gangs smashed their main governor isn't able to answer

That's the problem and instead of trying to appeal to farage voters and right wing Labour voters like you they should simply be providing evidence they are doing something

People like you can talk about 200k off the figures till you send everyone to sleep but until starmer can start saying he's presiding over a fair and robust immigration policy it's a waste of everyone's time

So let's say 250 k net migration in 3 years

I have made that up but it sounds OK I suppose

[JamesWales]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

Make something up and I will agree with you

The situation is that Labour are in power and when asked questions as to what they are realistically trying to do regarding immigration and for numbers of crime gangs smashed their main governor isn't able to answer

That's the problem and instead of trying to appeal to farage voters and right wing Labour voters like you they should simply be providing evidence they are doing something

People like you can talk about 200k off the figures till you send everyone to sleep but until starmer can start saying he's presiding over a fair and robust immigration policy it's a waste of everyone's time

So let's say 250 k net migration in 3 years

I have made that up but it sounds OK I suppose

I think that's what he's asking - what a fair and robust policy is. And not just fair and robust to people coming here (and leaving) but fair and robust to those of us already here too.

Current numbers are way too high. Have been for years. It blows my mind that people can't accept that when aside from any cultural or social arguments anyone may make, you physically cannot build the infrastructure in time.

And people go through the most complex mental gymnastics to try and avoid the truth staring them in the face too.

[JamesWales]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

Completely agree Eric.

I didn't mention housing in my post - but I spent most of my working life managing Council housing in Sheffield and it is the most critical factor in ensuring that society - with its ebbs and flows, incomings and outgoings - works.

We need to build and refurbish more homes. We need to stop the regressive Right To Buy system (loading debt on tenants, bleeding resources out of improvement and new build budgets, and creating concentrations of deprivation), stop second homes purchases, and limit the spread of Airbnb. The last two kill communities in rural Britain and ensure that there is no where for workers to live even if we can find workers for farms, restaurants and hotels in the first place. Unjoined-up thinking of the worst type that with the Brexit impacts and Covid disruptions has created social and economic chaos in many places.

Decent enough ideas. I never use Airbnb and would encourage others to do the same. It's a real issue as houses are taken out of the market. I would also add in that much new housing (nearly all large flat debts) is now but to let. We are building this stuff and actively preventing normal folk from buying them and forcing them to rent (at astronomical prices) from corporate landlords. It's shocking. Welsh and UK Govt could intervene, but they don't.

Build and refurbish more homes is easier said than done esp with environmental legislation which simply would need scaling back. But also who is paying for it when the country has so many competing needs? And even saying "build more" (which I agree with) is itself s recognition that it's only there to meet demand. With demand through the roof (no pun intended) then you will never meet demand.

But yeah, decent ideas and part of a host of changes needed, but when you keep adding hundreds of thousands of people to the housing demand every month then those suggestions are only plugging one hole whilst another two appear elsewhere.

[JamesWales]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

I mean nearly all large flat devts (developments) not debts..

Also, of course..

Also, hundreds of thousands of people every YEAR not month(!)

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

I think that's what he's asking - what a fair and robust policy is. And not just fair and robust to people coming here (and leaving) but fair and robust to those of us already here too.

Current numbers are way too high. Have been for years. It blows my mind that people can't accept that when aside from any cultural or social arguments anyone may make, you physically cannot build the infrastructure in time.

And people go through the most complex mental gymnastics to try and avoid the truth staring them in the face too.

No that's bullshit

We know that the issue needs to be dealt with

It's the fact that starmer is chasing lost votes whilst also doing very little that's the problem

I was embarrassed by him and Cooper dancing around the subject as much as anyone

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

Decent enough ideas. I never use Airbnb and would encourage others to do the same. It's a real issue as houses are taken out of the market. I would also add in that much new housing (nearly all large flat debts) is now but to let. We are building this stuff and actively preventing normal folk from buying them and forcing them to rent (at astronomical prices) from corporate landlords. It's shocking. Welsh and UK Govt could intervene, but they don't.

Build and refurbish more homes is easier said than done esp with environmental legislation which simply would need scaling back. But also who is paying for it when the country has so many competing needs? And even saying "build more" (which I agree with) is itself s recognition that it's only there to meet demand. With demand through the roof (no pun intended) then you will never meet demand.

But yeah, decent ideas and part of a host of changes needed, but when you keep adding hundreds of thousands of people to the housing demand every month then those suggestions are only plugging one hole whilst another two appear elsewhere.

You have supported right wing housing policy for years , irrespective of immigration this is a huge part of the problem

It started with Thatcher pushing the right to buy and has never been dealt with

It's no good you crying over something you have defended

The power of the market place eh !

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

No that's bullshit

We know that the issue needs to be dealt with

It's the fact that starmer is chasing lost votes whilst also doing very little that's the problem

I was embarrassed by him and Cooper dancing around the subject as much as anyone

I just have no time for anyone who focuses more on language than action/outcomes, essentially the nimbys of politics, just getting in the way of anything actually happening. That isn't to say there isn't a point where language can cross the line, but that line is pretty high for me. Loads of things have been stated about Starmer's speech in this thread that a) couldn't be backed up by direct quotes and b) don't matter anyway. What matters is the right outcome, which everyone is going to have a different opinion on but needs to include all of the things being touched upon here. The point of my question was echoing what I said in a different thread, politics is essentially about picking a point on a line - infinite immigration is clearly bad for the UK, infinite emigration (i.e. just everybody leaving) is clearly bad for the UK, so the right outcome is somewhere in the middle and everyone will disagree with where it is and why.

Same with WFA - universal is practically impossible to justify, giving it to nobody is pretty hard to justify so the answer is somewhere in the middle. Add in the fact that basing it on age kind of removes the argument that it is about need, it becomes a very complex discussion about something that looks simple. Yet almost everything I read about it, presents it as a simple choice.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

Completely agree Eric.

I didn't mention housing in my post - but I spent most of my working life managing Council housing in Sheffield and it is the most critical factor in ensuring that society - with its ebbs and flows, incomings and outgoings - works.

We need to build and refurbish more homes. We need to stop the regressive Right To Buy system (loading debt on tenants, bleeding resources out of improvement and new build budgets, and creating concentrations of deprivation), stop second homes purchases, and limit the spread of Airbnb. The last two kill communities in rural Britain and ensure that there is no where for workers to live even if we can find workers for farms, restaurants and hotels in the first place. Unjoined-up thinking of the worst type that with the Brexit impacts and Covid disruptions has created social and economic chaos in many places.

There's loads they could be doing and aren't and I'm with anybody who criticises the government for that, I just don't care about the pearl-clutching about language/chasing votes from the right.

Part of the problem with our system seems to be how slow it is, we are still seeing bills going through parliament that during the election were being talked about as if they were 'from day 1'. The main danger for labour is even if they get it right, all this heel dragging means in 4 years time there is no noticeable change.

[jon1959]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

I just don't care about the pearl-clutching about language/chasing votes from the right.

I don't know why you would label that concern as 'pearl-clutching'.

I think language matters, tone matters, the analysis matters, legitimising what might otherwise be seen as extreme and reactionary views matters, and the way the national policy debate is set matters.

And it is never just about words.... it always works through into government action or inaction.

To my mind Starmer has (yet again) demonstrated his lack of principle, his lack of consistency other than when it comes to lying, and his dismal lack of leadership. He reacts to challenges by trying to copy his challengers - but it turns out he is not very convincing as The New Enoch or Nigel's boring twin!

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

I don't know why you would label that concern as 'pearl-clutching'.

I think language matters, tone matters, the analysis matters, legitimising what might otherwise be seen as extreme and reactionary views matters, and the way the national policy debate is set matters.

And it is never just about words.... it always works through into government action or inaction.

To my mind Starmer has (yet again) demonstrated his lack of principle, his lack of consistency other than when it comes to lying, and his dismal lack of leadership. He reacts to challenges by trying to copy his challengers - but it turns out he is not very convincing as The New Enoch or Nigel's boring twin!

'deliberately over the top', it feels it to me, especially because you have to wring an opinion about the actual issue out of people.

I posted the speech earlier in the thread for people to go through and point out the bits that they had a problem with all, all I got back was sludge saying 'all of it, because it's him', which shows why I don't take the criticism at face value.

I take your point around language and tone but I am not seeing what he has said that 'legitimises extreme views' and as for 'words working through into actions', I don't see anything wrong with what they are proposing to do.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Starmer being compared to Enoch Powell now.

'deliberately over the top', it feels it to me, especially because you have to wring an opinion about the actual issue out of people.

I posted the speech earlier in the thread for people to go through and point out the bits that they had a problem with all, all I got back was sludge saying 'all of it, because it's him', which shows why I don't take the criticism at face value.

I take your point around language and tone but I am not seeing what he has said that 'legitimises extreme views' and as for 'words working through into actions', I don't see anything wrong with what they are proposing to do.

Give it a rest you fabian