40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

[pipster]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

That's impressive

If there was no religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc) and that whole area was just various people living there ?

Would they have found something else to fight about ? - I think they probably would.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

If there was no religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc) and that whole area was just various people living there ?

Would they have found something else to fight about ? - I think they probably would.

Religion is a facet of tribalism and there are other facets involved, of course.

Religions, by their very nature (i.e. folklore and the interpretation, modification and supplementary add-ons thereof) endlessly divide into schism upon schism ad infinitum. You only need to look at Abrahamism as a good example of that. And very often, the greatest hatred is between sects and religions that are philosophically close to each other. Just a facet of division and not the whole story.

People laying claim to the same territory but with different cultural backgrounds are a problem everywhere - but when religion is involved and its adherents thinking that they have a divine right to a tract of land courtesy of their Almighty (and that their enemies are lesser people) doesn't make a solution any easier.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

oops

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

If there was no religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc) and that whole area was just various people living there ?

Would they have found something else to fight about ? - I think they probably would.

Possibly

But I was watching interviews with Jews and Muslims yesterday on youtube both present day and stretching back many years and this chosen people cobblers and its our land no its not its ours , God gave it to us , no he didn't etc etc absolute tosh was coming through again and again

I am afraid religion in the poison there and the interpretation of daft old books

What chance has world peace got with that stupidity and ignorance still around in 2023 ?

[Gofer Blue]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

If there was no religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc) and that whole area was just various people living there ?

Would they have found something else to fight about ? - I think they probably would.

Absolutely they would. Greed for money or land or natural resources comes to mind immediately.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I understand what you are getting at but my response wasn't deflection. It is indeed the case that curse I have used has been embedded in our British culture for many centuries (and precedes Chaucer and Shakespeare) and one that I was exposed to myself.

Your point, if I understand it correctly and if I may say, would be better expressed as a separate issue or side issue; it's true that it's riskier criticising Islam on any forum on in public brings a greater risk than criticising Christianity. Similarly, one would have to be mindful of criticising Judaism and for another reason.

As we know, Christianity has not always been less forgiving but the societies it originally thrived in have changed and made it, in the main, less fundamental.
That dilution of fundamentalism has also resulted in individuals and schism considering some things as factual and other things metaphorical. How many Christians really believe in the talking snake, the talking donkey and Noah living 950 years and the creation story? My lay-preacher friend actually does and leaves churches when those churches are prepared to be less literal in their interpretation.

Islam asserts more control, in my opinion, over its adherents but I could be accused of being anti-Islamic for stating as much.
All religions I know are folklore and many of their stories were lifted from elsewhere (much to the surprise of their adherents). Some are more invasive and controlling than others.

Religions and language have traditionally travelled along the same conduit; that's why English speakers tended in recent centuries to be Christian, Arab speakers are more associated with Islam and Shintoists spoke Japanese in the main. People throughout history have largely believed the local religion foisted upon them and the same with language. Religion is parochial even when global.

Best have an overview of the souls on this planet, many of whom are believers in a deity or deities whilst believing that the non-believers of their schism are deluded. Religious adherents are merely influenced by time and place. You would not have been Christian if you were born into the Masai before colonialism, raised in the Amazon before colonialism, born in Ancient Greece or with Sikh parents in Amritsar.

Religions are patronising, infantilising, divisive and divide people. And very often overseen by a god that punishes non-adherents to an afterlife outside their supposed paradise. It's all incredibly fascinating if you are interested in humanity and history but we now have the intelligence and knowledge to understand the world in so many ways that bronze-age people couldn't.

Talking snakes and donkeys are so passé when we have an understanding of atoms, DNA and space travel.

Thank you for an interesting reply. I can see that you have obviously looked at world religions and are capable of making a reasoned argument for your case unlike others on the forum who simply have closed minds.

Obviously I disagree with you on some of the points you make. Re: talking snakes etc. - for myself I cannot be sure if some of these events are factual or metaphorical. I'm sure such events would have sounded pretty implausible even to bronze-age people - I think you do them an injustice in implying that they were gullible/thick! However if God is indeed an omnipotent being, then logically nothing is impossible?

I take the stance that either way what bearing do these “events” have on the behaviour of modern man? Yes, we have an understanding of atoms, DNA and space travel but has that knowledge in any way improved our morality? We have used that knowledge to design even more destructive weapons and quite likely biological weapons in the future. For every good use of technology there follows an evil one e.g. atomic research/nuclear weapons, Internet/child pornography; and more recently AI has been claimed to be the saviour of the world's problems - uhm...

SF ridicules my proposal that because people have largely ignored the teachings of Jesus we have the world we deserve. I am pretty sure your lay preacher friend and myself would agree on my proposal. Those who believe in the inevitable progress of man, either forget or ignore the fact that the twentieth century was the bloodiest, most destructive century in human history. The century's two world wars alone resulted in the deaths of at least 60 million people. Overall an estimated 108 million died in wars/conflicts in that century. (Ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/06/b...about-war.html).

You profess to believe there was an historical Jesus but the recording of his works and life are fictitious. I totally disagree. There is a common throw-away line that the gospels in the New Testament were written hundreds of years after the events but this is simply not true. The apostle Mark wrote his account in about 70AD and John about 90AD. John was the only one who died of old age, all the others were martyred for their faith.

As to your statement “And very often overseen by a god that punishes non-adherents to an afterlife outside their supposed paradise” I would argue that God does not punish non-adherents, they simply exclude themselves. Indeed God would prefer that everyone acknowledges Jesus for who he is, so no-one is excluded. I believe I will go to heaven when I die, not because I am better than anybody else or the amount of my good works but because I have accepted Jesus for who he is, become a follower, and purely by grace alone will meet him face to face one day. It is difficult to think of an exact analogy but why would anyone expect to be able to join any organisation that they had already declared that they fundamentally disagreed with? Indeed, why bother trying? The choice is theirs to make.

It's not my job to Bible-bash or judge others who do not share my Christian faith. This does not mean that I can't have opinions though! All I can do is to show how I live my life and try to put my faith into action so that others might question why I am the way I am. Actions speak louder than words as they say.

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Hi Gofer. I don't want to get into a debate on faith or religion, but your comment 'I would argue that God does not punish non-adherents, they simply exclude themselves.' is something I have heard before and it intrigues me. The vast majority of humanity have been born and lived in the wrong place and/or the wrong time to even know about your religion of choice. How have they excluded themselves?

As a convinced atheist I don't believe any of it. When I die (when any of us die) consciousness ends and thats it - with decomposition or ashes for the physical bits that remain. But in the real world there are believers with enormous political or financial power who use their metaphysical views to affect the lives of millions. I was reading some things about Mike Johnson - the new US Speaker - this morning, and his view of 'the Christian elect and the rest' is truly scary. Your posts usually come across as a matter of personal faith (and a code for living) not about imposing a belief system on others, but the comment I picked out above confuses and worries me.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

So a nomadic tribesman in Africa who has rarely had contact with Christian missionaries ......and the same in the amazon or in sub desert Australia.......

These simple people have not met God through the Abrahamic religious scriptures

But you have ......so you are going to heaven and you are going to meet God

But they havnt ......so they can't

This is absolute nonsense

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Thank you for an interesting reply. I can see that you have obviously looked at world religions and are capable of making a reasoned argument for your case unlike others on the forum who simply have closed minds.

Obviously I disagree with you on some of the points you make. Re: talking snakes etc. - for myself I cannot be sure if some of these events are factual or metaphorical. I'm sure such events would have sounded pretty implausible even to bronze-age people - I think you do them an injustice in implying that they were gullible/thick! However if God is indeed an omnipotent being, then logically nothing is impossible?

I take the stance that either way what bearing do these “events” have on the behaviour of modern man? Yes, we have an understanding of atoms, DNA and space travel but has that knowledge in any way improved our morality? We have used that knowledge to design even more destructive weapons and quite likely biological weapons in the future. For every good use of technology there follows an evil one e.g. atomic research/nuclear weapons, Internet/child pornography; and more recently AI has been claimed to be the saviour of the world's problems - uhm...

SF ridicules my proposal that because people have largely ignored the teachings of Jesus we have the world we deserve. I am pretty sure your lay preacher friend and myself would agree on my proposal. Those who believe in the inevitable progress of man, either forget or ignore the fact that the twentieth century was the bloodiest, most destructive century in human history. The century's two world wars alone resulted in the deaths of at least 60 million people. Overall an estimated 108 million died in wars/conflicts in that century. (Ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/06/b...about-war.html).

You profess to believe there was an historical Jesus but the recording of his works and life are fictitious. I totally disagree. There is a common throw-away line that the gospels in the New Testament were written hundreds of years after the events but this is simply not true. The apostle Mark wrote his account in about 70AD and John about 90AD. John was the only one who died of old age, all the others were martyred for their faith.

As to your statement “And very often overseen by a god that punishes non-adherents to an afterlife outside their supposed paradise” I would argue that God does not punish non-adherents, they simply exclude themselves. Indeed God would prefer that everyone acknowledges Jesus for who he is, so no-one is excluded. I believe I will go to heaven when I die, not because I am better than anybody else or the amount of my good works but because I have accepted Jesus for who he is, become a follower, and purely by grace alone will meet him face to face one day. It is difficult to think of an exact analogy but why would anyone expect to be able to join any organisation that they had already declared that they fundamentally disagreed with? Indeed, why bother trying? The choice is theirs to make.

It's not my job to Bible-bash or judge others who do not share my Christian faith. This does not mean that I can't have opinions though! All I can do is to show how I live my life and try to put my faith into action so that others might question why I am the way I am. Actions speak louder than words as they say.

We have the world we have because of organised religion .....point 1..........not because we have ignored the teachings of Jesus etc etc

Point 2 .....the teachings of Jesus are just reasonable ways to live , people's of lots of backgrounds all over the centuries have either lived badly or somewhere in the middle or like complete tossers .....plenty of people who live as Christians die young through the actions of others or in accidents that if God existed he would have seen coming and thought blimey Trevor is going to be hit by flying masonry next week in the storm , I will make sure he stays in the house .....but he doesn't

He doesn't exist

God brings comfort then that's fine but quoting stories saying oh he said this and he said that on the way to the temple and the way that possible conversation was interpretation a few hundred years later means that people's lives are actually shaped by all this hearsay ?


And the Jews are the chosen ones ?

And this land is theirs oh no its not its ours !

The sooner humanity kicks all this into touch the better

If someone wants to argue religion is not at the core of the Israeli Arab conflict I know a good psychiatrist

[Gofer Blue]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Hi Gofer. I don't want to get into a debate on faith or religion, but your comment 'I would argue that God does not punish non-adherents, they simply exclude themselves.' is something I have heard before and it intrigues me. The vast majority of humanity have been born and lived in the wrong place and/or the wrong time to even know about your religion of choice. How have they excluded themselves?

As a convinced atheist I don't believe any of it. When I die (when any of us die) consciousness ends and thats it - with decomposition or ashes for the physical bits that remain. But in the real world there are believers with enormous political or financial power who use their metaphysical views to affect the lives of millions. I was reading some things about Mike Johnson - the new US Speaker - this morning, and his view of 'the Christian elect and the rest' is truly scary. Your posts usually come across as a matter of personal faith (and a code for living) not about imposing a belief system on others, but the comment I picked out above confuses and worries me.

In answer to your question, please see my reply to SF below.

Of course I would love it if all people came to accept Jesus as their personal saviour. However I cannot evangelise the entire world by myself but I can be a good witness in my little corner. Ultimately the choice is down to each individual. Every decision we make in life has consequences.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

We have the world we have because of organised religion .....point 1..........not because we have ignored the teachings of Jesus etc etc

Point 2 .....the teachings of Jesus are just reasonable ways to live , people's of lots of backgrounds all over the centuries have either lived badly or somewhere in the middle or like complete tossers .....plenty of people who live as Christians die young through the actions of others or in accidents that if God existed he would have seen coming and thought blimey Trevor is going to be hit by flying masonry next week in the storm , I will make sure he stays in the house .....but he doesn't

He doesn't exist

God brings comfort then that's fine but quoting stories saying oh he said this and he said that on the way to the temple and the way that possible conversation was interpretation a few hundred years later means that people's lives are actually shaped by all this hearsay ?


And the Jews are the chosen ones ?

And this land is theirs oh no its not its ours !

The sooner humanity kicks all this into touch the better

If someone wants to argue religion is not at the core of the Israeli Arab conflict I know a good psychiatrist

I found this quote on the Internet which I think is a good summary:

“Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we as Christians should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God”.

I freely admit that I am not a particularly good evangelist but if challenged about Christianity I will do my best to respond.

There is a Christian charity called the Wycliffe Bible Translators whose sole purpose it is, is to translate the Bible into every language. They say that 1 in 5 of the world's population have not heard the Gospels in their own language so they have quite a task on their hands. I am surprised that in this day and age there are so many people to reach.

The Bible acknowledges the issue you raise: “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14). This means everyone will have a chance to hear the gospels and have the opportunity to accept or reject it. At the end of the day I am not God so (thankfully) it is not my job to judge people!

I can't help feeling that the fact you grew up in a Catholic environment has coloured your understanding of Christianity. Martin Luther, along with many other reformers, recognized that the Roman Catholic doctrine of “temporal and spiritual orders” (most commonly known to us as “Clergy and laity”) was not biblically accurate. In fact, for the most part it was man-made. They essentially believed that common believers were not capable of fulfilling the duties that the clergy were called to so they created this great distinction between the two. Instead of an equal playing field where every believer participated in the priestly duties, the Roman Catholic church created a hierarchy in the church. The trained professionals ruled over the common untrained people. This distinction was largely non-existent prior to the fourth century. (Some historians claim there were traces of it just prior to Constantine). We all know what happened with this unbiblical dispensing of power!

You may (or may not!) care to know that I no longer attend an established church. Instead as a group of like minded Christians we meet in our own homes just as the early church did back in the 1st century A.D. There is no hierarchy, we are all equal in the sight of God.

Finally, I do not deny that religion is the primary cause of the Israeli/Arab conflict. I rather think you mean here the Jewish and Islamic religions in particular – I don't believe there are many jihadist or “eye-for-an-eye” gun-toting Christians involved there do you?

I'm sure Jesus weeps over the whole situation as he did when speaking of Jerusalem all those years ago: “As he came near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, “If you, even you, had only recognized on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.” Luke 19:41-42 .

Fast forward 2000 years...mankind has learned nothing but we still have the free will to carry on, on our own sweet way.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I found this quote on the Internet which I think is a good summary:

“Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we as Christians should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God”.

I freely admit that I am not a particularly good evangelist but if challenged about Christianity I will do my best to respond.

There is a Christian charity called the Wycliffe Bible Translators whose sole purpose it is, is to translate the Bible into every language. They say that 1 in 5 of the world's population have not heard the Gospels in their own language so they have quite a task on their hands. I am surprised that in this day and age there are so many people to reach.

The Bible acknowledges the issue you raise: “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14). This means everyone will have a chance to hear the gospels and have the opportunity to accept or reject it. At the end of the day I am not God so (thankfully) it is not my job to judge people!

I can't help feeling that the fact you grew up in a Catholic environment has coloured your understanding of Christianity. Martin Luther, along with many other reformers, recognized that the Roman Catholic doctrine of “temporal and spiritual orders” (most commonly known to us as “Clergy and laity”) was not biblically accurate. In fact, for the most part it was man-made. They essentially believed that common believers were not capable of fulfilling the duties that the clergy were called to so they created this great distinction between the two. Instead of an equal playing field where every believer participated in the priestly duties, the Roman Catholic church created a hierarchy in the church. The trained professionals ruled over the common untrained people. This distinction was largely non-existent prior to the fourth century. (Some historians claim there were traces of it just prior to Constantine). We all know what happened with this unbiblical dispensing of power!

You may (or may not!) care to know that I no longer attend an established church. Instead as a group of like minded Christians we meet in our own homes just as the early church did back in the 1st century A.D. There is no hierarchy, we are all equal in the sight of God.

Finally, I do not deny that religion is the primary cause of the Israeli/Arab conflict. I rather think you mean here the Jewish and Islamic religions in particular – I don't believe there are many jihadist or “eye-for-an-eye” gun-toting Christians involved there do you?

I'm sure Jesus weeps over the whole situation as he did when speaking of Jerusalem all those years ago: “As he came near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, “If you, even you, had only recognized on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.” Luke 19:41-42 .

Fast forward 2000 years...mankind has learned nothing but we still have the free will to carry on, on our own sweet way.

My first response to this is simple

If organised religion through bibles and churches and missionaries......to be a Christian is to be a missionary my mother always said ......

Cannot get through to those that need to be given the chance to accept your God.....then if God is all powerful then he should let these people .....billions of them .... into his kingdom

Everything regarding God and religion fails basic tests every time ....and if it fails holy people have another story or saying or reading ......or excuse

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

In answer to your question, please see my reply to SF below.

I read it. A lot of words but it doesn’t even attempt to answer my question - or the similar points made by TBG.

But let it lie - I have lost interest and there is no possible response that doesn’t involve mental contortions and supernatural illogical feedback loops that will be meaningless to anyone outside the bubble. Life’s too short.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

The surge in dogmatic atheism along with the growth of social media coincides with the most polarized society that I can remember.

A new religion of puritanical zealots has filled the vacuum and is succeeding in sucking out the reasoning and joys of society.

Back on topic though.

It is imperative that both Hamas and Israel are held accountable.
Hamas for the terrible atrocities that occurred recently and Israel for its abhorrent treatment of Palestinians over decades, creating such fertile ground for an organization like Hamas to grow.

This conflict is a Wet Dream for Netanyahu and his cabinet.
They must have had intelligence about what was going happen and I think they let it slide to allow them to pursue the actions that they are now taking.

Conversely, Hamas would have expected such a reaction including the deaths of thousands of civilians.
For what purpose?

Not having sufficient evidence to believe in a deity is a lack of dogma rather than a dogma, old fruit.

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Not having sufficient evidence to believe in a deity is a lack of dogma rather than a dogma, old fruit.

Dogmatix.jpg