Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

[Heathblue]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

I am not arguing with you about ‘disgusting POS’ although I guess I have a different charge sheet.

I am struggling with your WUM label of ‘uber left commie’, although I suppose that just adds up to another successful fishing trip?

Still, as Q said ‘ xbrefj6fse3gf£5£@&*(/(‘. No arguing with that.

Q has never said that !!
Q.jpg

[JamesWales]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

I am not arguing with you about ‘disgusting POS’ although I guess I have a different charge sheet.

I am struggling with your WUM label of ‘uber left commie’, although I suppose that just adds up to another successful fishing trip?

Still, as Q said ‘ xbrefj6fse3gf£5£@&*(/(‘. No arguing with that.

An inevitable consequence of linguistic inflation. The more fascists there are, so the more commies there will be. At some point everyone will calm down.

[jon1959]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

An inevitable consequence of linguistic inflation. The more fascists there are, so the more commies there will be. At some point everyone will calm down.

No. A serious discussion on here about creeping fascism across the world (from the USA to India) which you refused to engage with seriously. And a Heath special wind up where he presents the most right wing Labour administration in history as representatives of the Fourth International. Chalk and cheese!

[JamesWales]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

No. A serious discussion on here about creeping fascism across the world (from the USA to India) which you refused to engage with seriously. And a Heath special wind up where he presents the most right wing Labour administration in history as representatives of the Fourth International. Chalk and cheese!

Sorry Jon, some fellas like you on the left routinely label people things they arent, so people will inevitably do the same in reverse. It's stupid, I agree, but it takes calling out on all sides. Have you seen some of the stuff said on here?!

Id love a proper conversation about global politics, hyperbole free, chance would be a great thing, when shall we do it?!

[Dorcus]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

Sorry Jon, some fellas like you on the left routinely label people things they arent, so people will inevitably do the same in reverse. It's stupid, I agree, but it takes calling out on all sides. Have you seen some of the stuff said on here?!

Id love a proper conversation about global politics, hyperbole free, chance would be a great thing, when shall we do it?!

James, if you had your way you'd have us believe Fascism was a figment of the imagination.

[JamesWales]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

James, if you had your way you'd have us believe Fascism was a figment of the imagination.

No I wouldn't. I just think the word should be used appropriately and not as another word merely for someone who has a different opinion.

Personally I think it's a profoundly misunderstood and missed word and those who use it are lot are frequently closer to it than those they accuse of the very same thing.

[Dorcus]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

No I wouldn't. I just think the word should be used appropriately and not as another word merely for someone who has a different opinion.

Personally I think it's a profoundly misunderstood and missed word and those who use it are lot are frequently closer to it than those they accuse of the very same thing.

I think you're being disingenuous and manipulative. You know full well there are fascist or quasi fascist administrations emerging throughout the World but you refuse to label them as such for fear of heightening their disapproval.

[JamesWales]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

I think you're being disingenuous and manipulative. You know full well there are fascist or quasi fascist administrations emerging throughout the World but you refuse to label them as such for fear of heightening their disapproval.

Needless to say, I despise fascism and overt state control of our lives. I'm quite a passionate libertarian in many respects, particularly in terms of a free press, free speech, opposition to cashless societies due to the controlling factors etc. When it comes to respecting votes I have been very vocal about respecting referendum results for example.

But that doesn't mean the insult (and it is a massive insult) should be thrown around at individuals or used to mislabel various regimes around the world or used when its not appropriate.

There are of course authoritarian regimes in the world, some of which are fascistic, but really I think the discussion would benefit from a clean slate, the referencing of some specific conversations and some open minded chat about those countries and I think it's definitely the case that many self labelled anti-fascists bear a stark resemblance to the things they supposedly despise.

All a bit deep for a Friday night now mind 😝

[jon1959]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

Sorry Jon, some fellas like you on the left routinely label people things they arent, so people will inevitably do the same in reverse. It's stupid, I agree, but it takes calling out on all sides. Have you seen some of the stuff said on here?!

Id love a proper conversation about global politics, hyperbole free, chance would be a great thing, when shall we do it?!

I have been very careful to only use the word fascist when I am sure it is the right one. I disagreed with Paul (TOBW) last year over whether Trump and his administration was fascist (it has since moved a long way in that direction) and said I didn’t think Netanyahu fitted that label - although Smotrich and Ben-Gvir certainly do.

Right wing populism does not mean fascism but many parts of the new right are clearly fascist. For instance I think Farage is a racist; but I would not call him a fascist. Stephen Yaxley-Lennon on the other hand….

I think the Modi regime in India has crossed a line into fascism. The Israeli government likewise, even if Netanyahu is motivated by greed and aversion to gaol more than a racist and supremacist ideology (although he also promotes that).

The Trump administration is about to cross a line too - and now ticks most of the boxes that define fascism.

You and others on this board over the years appear to reject the description if it is not based on every symbol, policy and prejudice of Nazi Germany in the 1930s. That was one form of fascism - there were others - and not all were rooted in anti Semitism. Mussolini was a hero to the Zionist terror groups in Palestine in the 1920s and early 1930s.

Just measure the Trump record - especially second term - against the Umberto Eco definition of fascism (one of the most widely referenced) and watch all the red flags pop up!

If you want to claim that a brutal theocratic regime like Iran after 1979 is fascist (and the Shah’s regime before) you might get some traction. But rejecting all use of the term as the evidence mounts up is not serious!

[JamesWales]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

I have been very careful to only use the word fascist when I am sure it is the right one. I disagreed with Paul (TOBW) last year over whether Trump and his administration was fascist (it has since moved a long way in that direction) and said I didn’t think Netanyahu fitted that label - although Smotrich and Ben-Gvir certainly do.

Right wing populism does not mean fascism but many parts of the new right are clearly fascist. For instance I think Farage is a racist; but I would not call him a fascist. Stephen Yaxley-Lennon on the other hand….

I think the Modi regime in India has crossed a line into fascism. The Israeli government likewise, even if Netanyahu is motivated by greed and aversion to gaol more than a racist and supremacist ideology (although he also promotes that).

The Trump administration is about to cross a line too - and now ticks most of the boxes that define fascism.

You and others on this board over the years appear to reject the description if it is not based on every symbol, policy and prejudice of Nazi Germany in the 1930s. That was one form of fascism - there were others - and not all were rooted in anti Semitism. Mussolini was a hero to the Zionist terror groups in Palestine in the 1920s and early 1930s.

Just measure the Trump record - especially second term - against the Umberto Eco definition of fascism (one of the most widely referenced) and watch all the red flags pop up!

If you want to claim that a brutal theocratic regime like Iran after 1979 is fascist (and the Shah’s regime before) you might get some traction. But rejecting all use of the term as the evidence mounts up is not serious!

It's not just the word fascism. It's labelling people as far right, racist, extremist and all the rest of it, when people in the vast majority of cases plainly aren't. It's a clear tactic used by some to justify their own position/prejudices and as a barrier to trying to understand things. It doesn't work. It's insulting,unhelpful and counter productive - to me it makes the people who do it look just as cranky as the Marjorie Taylor Greenes of the world running around calling people Commies and radical Leftists. The word is proposterously overused, to the point it's an insult to millions of genuine sufferers, just as labelling people commies is too.

Personally I view fascism firmly within the wider issue of authoritarianism or totalitarianism. This covers essentially the same outcomes but doesn't allow people the cover to support some (if they more closely align to their opinion) and opposed others (if they don't).

It's also what matters on the ground to people. Who cares if the boot oppressing you comes from the left foot or the right foot, or indeed as is often the case, both feet?

This is my point, I don't sense a lot of the people using these words actually care that much, it's more about using the political language as a kind of culture war. To clarify, I don't reject that fascism exists and is dangerous. I reject to it being used as a day to day insult to describe people's opinions as a response to not understanding them.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

Step 1: Socialists scream tax the rich
Step 2: The rich leave
Step 3. Socialists celebrate
Step 4: Tax revenues go down
Step 5: Tax goes up on everyone else
Step 6: Socialists go broke & are voted out
Step 7: Capitalism saves the day
Step 8: Taxes go down
Step 9: Economy thrives
Step 10: Socialists scream tax the rich

And so the cycles continues

The sooner we get to Step 6. the better society will be for everyone, we are stuck at step 5 currently but 6 is in the way….

Point 2 presupposes that being rich is the same as being a talented philanthropist who sees helping those worse off than them almost as a duty. Maybe it was true once (although I have my doubts about that), but it’s never been true in the twenty first century.

Also, what happened to steps 7,8 and 9 after the Tories were supposed to “rescue” us in 2010 I’d say that the last time we had a properly thriving economy was under a Labour Government pre 2008

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

It's not just the word fascism. It's labelling people as far right, racist, extremist and all the rest of it, when people in the vast majority of cases plainly aren't. It's a clear tactic used by some to justify their own position/prejudices and as a barrier to trying to understand things. It doesn't work. It's insulting,unhelpful and counter productive - to me it makes the people who do it look just as cranky as the Marjorie Taylor Greenes of the world running around calling people Commies and radical Leftists. The word is proposterously overused, to the point it's an insult to millions of genuine sufferers, just as labelling people commies is too.

Personally I view fascism firmly within the wider issue of authoritarianism or totalitarianism. This covers essentially the same outcomes but doesn't allow people the cover to support some (if they more closely align to their opinion) and opposed others (if they don't).

It's also what matters on the ground to people. Who cares if the boot oppressing you comes from the left foot or the right foot, or indeed as is often the case, both feet?

This is my point, I don't sense a lot of the people using these words actually care that much, it's more about using the political language as a kind of culture war. To clarify, I don't reject that fascism exists and is dangerous. I reject to it being used as a day to day insult to describe people's opinions as a response to not understanding them.

Here is the Umberto Eco definition of Fascism mentioned by Jon, can you let us know which ones out of the fourteen categories identified by him cannot be reasonably argued as applying to the current US Government and, in particular the President?

https://www.openculture.com/2024/11/umberto-ecos-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html

[JamesWales]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

Here is the Umberto Eco definition of Fascism mentioned by Jon, can you let us know which ones out of the fourteen categories identified by him cannot be reasonably argued as applying to the current US Government and, in particular the President?

https://www.openculture.com/2024/11/...f-fascism.html

I think this is the third time we've gone through this list on here. I don't think it's a good one, it's too broad and applies to a great many authoritarian (but not fascist) regimes as well as many democratic ones. I think people like it as it's so broad as to be able to accuse others of being one.

I'll try and answer how many I think apply to Trump tomorrow, but I am just about to get a quick pint in the Napier for now. 👍

[Dorcus]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

I think this is the third time we've gone through this list on here. I don't think it's a good one, it's too broad and applies to a great many authoritarian (but not fascist) regimes as well as many democratic ones. I think people like it as it's so broad as to be able to accuse others of being one.

I'll try and answer how many I think apply to Trump tomorrow, but I am just about to get a quick pint in the Napier for now. 👍

It's amazing how some people will denigrate anything just because they don't like it.

[Heathblue]

Re: Reform , Ready To Rule , BBC 2 Tonight

But of course it begs the question what should you call people who are fascists or commies?

Off the cuff, those who try and postpone elections and try to remove trial by jury which will simply permit partisan judges to convict on leverage, BS and personal politics. I'd call these fascists and commies. 😁