40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

On the contrary, that's precisely why I asked how he can reconcile his ideas about the selfish gene with the concept of love! I have watched many videos on YouTube when he is in conversation with people like John Lennox for example and heard him speak quite emotionally on times, particularly the later ones where he seems to be much calmer and relaxed in his dialogue. In the earlier ones he tends to be full-on evangelical atheist!

I think he reconciles his perspective very well and can easily explain the primitive impulses in play regarding our ancestral evolution and the more complex and nuanced behaviour we are capable of due to our intelligence and intellect. I think the failure here is your lack of understanding of his perspective rather than his perspective per se.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Why do you believe that Jesus was the son of God when the Jews don't? Why do you believe that he was the result of a virgin birth when the Jews don't? Why do you recognise the New Testament when the Jews don't?

The Jews are still awaiting the Messiah. AIUI Jewish scholars claim that there are a number of translation errors from the original Hebrew which in turn nullify some of the claims about Jesus fulfilling the OT prophesies about the Messiah. Also the Jews expected their Messiah to come as a powerful king who would raise an army to rid Israel of the Roman occupation. Instead Jesus came as the exact opposite - a servant figure, who paradoxically caused them trouble by starting to stir up the population and thereby threatening the status and power that the religious hierarchy enjoyed at that time. By having him executed by the Romans they thought that would be the end of their troubles.

I suppose logically then the Jews could not accept the New Testament as to them it was based on at best a misinterpretation and at worst a lie.

C.S. Lewis popularized the argument that Jesus was either a liar or a lunatic or the Messiah. I think it was Dawkins who added a fourth possibility – that he was deluded. From what I read from the gospels he was not a lunatic.

He could have been a convincing liar I suppose but he “put his money where his mouth was” in the compassionate way he dealt with people and the miracles of healing he performed. Also if he was a liar what did he hope to gain by deceit – not a lot it seems!

Deluded – well that might be arguable bar for the fact that he was resurrected after being dead for 3 days. That would take some delusion on his part I would say!

Hence I believe he was the Messiah and the New Testament is a true account of his life and works. Maybe the Jews will accept him when he returns in the Second Coming as it is will not be anything like the previous one and more in line with Jewish expectations of what the Messiah will be like perhaps?

[Gofer Blue]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I think he reconciles his perspective very well and can easily explain the primitive impulses in play regarding our ancestral evolution and the more complex and nuanced behaviour we are capable of due to our intelligence and intellect. I think the failure here is your lack of understanding of his perspective rather than his perspective per se.

I seem to remember the "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" theory which was meant to explain the evolution of human behaviour. I'm not 100% sure if Dawkins was the originator of that though? I think there is a big difference between that and the more altruistic behaviour which we humans can exhibit where there is no personal gain from an action.

C.S. Lewis once said: First, human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it.

The term 'Law of Nature' refers to the fact that it is part of our human nature and is therefore something we all know by virtue of just being human. Lewis believed that we know right from wrong, and still defy it.

Where do you think the notion of knowing right from wrong comes from?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I seem to remember the "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" theory which was meant to explain the evolution of human behaviour. I'm not 100% sure if Dawkins was the originator of that though? I think there is a big difference between that and the more altruistic behaviour which we humans can exhibit where there is no personal gain from an action.

C.S. Lewis once said: First, human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it.

The term 'Law of Nature' refers to the fact that it is part of our human nature and is therefore something we all know by virtue of just being human. Lewis believed that we know right from wrong, and still defy it.

Where do you think the notion of knowing right from wrong comes from?

Yes, behaviour that benefits a whole group plays a huge part.

[jon1959]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Just to bring this back a bit closer to the subject of the thread - Palestinian Anglicans are getting more upset with the lack of support they have had from the Archbishop of Canterbury - who they accuse of relegating their plight and playing UK politics with his position and platform:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/palestinian-christians-in-jerusalem-call-on-justin-welby-to-speak-truth-to-power

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

The Jews are still awaiting the Messiah. AIUI Jewish scholars claim that there are a number of translation errors from the original Hebrew which in turn nullify some of the claims about Jesus fulfilling the OT prophesies about the Messiah. Also the Jews expected their Messiah to come as a powerful king who would raise an army to rid Israel of the Roman occupation. Instead Jesus came as the exact opposite - a servant figure, who paradoxically caused them trouble by starting to stir up the population and thereby threatening the status and power that the religious hierarchy enjoyed at that time. By having him executed by the Romans they thought that would be the end of their troubles.

I suppose logically then the Jews could not accept the New Testament as to them it was based on at best a misinterpretation and at worst a lie.

C.S. Lewis popularized the argument that Jesus was either a liar or a lunatic or the Messiah. I think it was Dawkins who added a fourth possibility – that he was deluded. From what I read from the gospels he was not a lunatic.

He could have been a convincing liar I suppose but he “put his money where his mouth was” in the compassionate way he dealt with people and the miracles of healing he performed. Also if he was a liar what did he hope to gain by deceit – not a lot it seems!

Deluded – well that might be arguable bar for the fact that he was resurrected after being dead for 3 days. That would take some delusion on his part I would say!

Hence I believe he was the Messiah and the New Testament is a true account of his life and works. Maybe the Jews will accept him when he returns in the Second Coming as it is will not be anything like the previous one and more in line with Jewish expectations of what the Messiah will be like perhaps?

I know the background of the Torah and the perspective of the Jews. I just wondered why you don't have their take on things. Is it because you were introduced to the Bible as a compendium as a child?

[truthpaste]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Yes, behaviour that benefits a whole group plays a huge part.

Yet again you don't actually address the question but you do constantly complain that the masses don't come anywhere near your intellectual heights.

If you actually have the latter then why do you constantly fail in the former?

[truthpaste]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I think he reconciles his perspective very well and can easily explain the primitive impulses in play regarding our ancestral evolution and the more complex and nuanced behaviour we are capable of due to our intelligence and intellect. I think the failure here is your lack of understanding of his perspective rather than his perspective per se.

John Lennox has made mincemeat of your 'high priest' on more than one occasion - in this example, Lennox states to Dawkins that evolution does NOT explain the origin of life - please avoid as usual if you wish to preserve your chosen delusion.

Dawkins tries to debate John Lennox

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

John Lennox has made mincemeat of your 'high priest' on more than one occasion - in this example, Lennox states to Dawkins that evolution does NOT explain the origin of life - please avoid as usual if you wish to preserve your chosen delusion.

Dawkins tries to debate John Lennox

He's not my high priest, old fruit. I have never suggested as much. You have made that up completely. No surprises there. The delusion is all yours.
Why don't you read what I write rather than imagining what I write? Surely you can manage that.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

John Lennox has made mincemeat of your 'high priest' on more than one occasion - in this example, Lennox states to Dawkins that evolution does NOT explain the origin of life - please avoid as usual if you wish to preserve your chosen delusion.

Dawkins tries to debate John Lennox

I'll have a look at that video but is it the case that you deny evolution but believe in the talking snake?

[Gofer Blue]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I know the background of the Torah and the perspective of the Jews. I just wondered why you don't have their take on things. Is it because you were introduced to the Bible as a compendium as a child?

With apologies for the lengthy reply:

Yes, like most of my generation I attended Sunday School when I was a child. At secondary school my favourite subjects were the sciences, in particular biology, and although the biological processes involving DNA and RNA were only really just beginning to be understood, Darwinian evolution seemed to tick all the boxes about life for me. Consequently I abandoned any interest in religion/creation theory.

I was in my mid-30's (nearly 20 years later) when my wife, who had never had any exposure to, or interest in, religion of any form at all (apart from school assemblies I guess) decided that our two young children who were 5 and 6 years old at the time should go to Sunday School. As they were young and we had just moved to a new town, they were very clingy to her, she went along with them. It also gave her the opportunity to meet other young mums as we didn't know anyone then. To cut a long story short, it wasn't long before she announced that she was a Christian and indeed there was a complete change in her, very similar I discovered much later, to the experience that the atheist Lee Strobel described about his wife.

Reluctantly I ended up being coerced into going to the church with her. There I met some, what I now call, “real” Christian people as opposed to “church going” people. I know it's become a rather well worn cliché, but they had something special about them, something I felt I needed. I met a man and his wife there who subsequently became close friends. I spent many hours with them debating the Christian faith, in particular the resurrection of Jesus, which of course is the cornerstone but of which I was highly skeptical! If that was a fabrication then Christianity is a baseless belief. So I made quite a detailed study of this and read the books by Frank Morrison and Lee Strobel. These were both written by non-believing skeptics like myself, so quite influential.

Then one day I was driving my car concentrating on the road with nothing particular on my mind except for getting to work on time, when the most incredible feeling came over me. To this day I cannot explain what happened and no doubt skeptics will dismiss it as some random pharmacological/electrical event in my brain. My heart literally felt as if it would burst – it was just like the experience of falling in love for the first time and I had an incredible feeling of warmth and peace came over me, not just peace per se but a sense that everything was ok and under control with no need to worry. Now I know that some Christians claim to have God speaking to them several times a day every day but I can honestly say this was a one-off “Damascus road” experience which has never happened since. Dismiss it if you will, but I can tell you it was real and life-changing! The rest is history as they say.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

John Lennox has made mincemeat of your 'high priest' on more than one occasion - in this example, Lennox states to Dawkins that evolution does NOT explain the origin of life - please avoid as usual if you wish to preserve your chosen delusion.

Dawkins tries to debate John Lennox

Where's part two?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

With apologies for the lengthy reply:

Yes, like most of my generation I attended Sunday School when I was a child. At secondary school my favourite subjects were the sciences, in particular biology, and although the biological processes involving DNA and RNA were only really just beginning to be understood, Darwinian evolution seemed to tick all the boxes about life for me. Consequently I abandoned any interest in religion/creation theory.

I was in my mid-30's (nearly 20 years later) when my wife, who had never had any exposure to, or interest in, religion of any form at all (apart from school assemblies I guess) decided that our two young children who were 5 and 6 years old at the time should go to Sunday School. As they were young and we had just moved to a new town, they were very clingy to her, she went along with them. It also gave her the opportunity to meet other young mums as we didn't know anyone then. To cut a long story short, it wasn't long before she announced that she was a Christian and indeed there was a complete change in her, very similar I discovered much later, to the experience that the atheist Lee Strobel described about his wife.

Reluctantly I ended up being coerced into going to the church with her. There I met some, what I now call, “real” Christian people as opposed to “church going” people. I know it's become a rather well worn cliché, but they had something special about them, something I felt I needed. I met a man and his wife there who subsequently became close friends. I spent many hours with them debating the Christian faith, in particular the resurrection of Jesus, which of course is the cornerstone but of which I was highly skeptical! If that was a fabrication then Christianity is a baseless belief. So I made quite a detailed study of this and read the books by Frank Morrison and Lee Strobel. These were both written by non-believing skeptics like myself, so quite influential.

Then one day I was driving my car concentrating on the road with nothing particular on my mind except for getting to work on time, when the most incredible feeling came over me. To this day I cannot explain what happened and no doubt skeptics will dismiss it as some random pharmacological/electrical event in my brain. My heart literally felt as if it would burst – it was just like the experience of falling in love for the first time and I had an incredible feeling of warmth and peace came over me, not just peace per se but a sense that everything was ok and under control with no need to worry. Now I know that some Christians claim to have God speaking to them several times a day every day but I can honestly say this was a one-off “Damascus road” experience which has never happened since. Dismiss it if you will, but I can tell you it was real and life-changing! The rest is history as they say.

Why is this related to any belief or existence of God ?

People who have no interest in , belief of or adherence to any God , faith or lifestyle talk of moments of peace , self awareness ......enlightenment ......

Why do you think that people who are not believers can't go through such experiences ?

It's a human experience and not particular to religious people

[truthpaste]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Where's part two?

Here is the FULL DEBATE Dawkins v Lennox

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

I'll have a look at that video but is it the case that you deny evolution but believe in the talking snake?

The video was a one-sided and childishly edited piece and featured only someone who believes in miracles.
Pretty feeble.

Why the 'Good Lord" intervened in Israel in Bronze-aged times but sits back and does diddly squat in 2023 when thousands of children are being slaughtered following a heinous attack in the first place is anyone's guess. Still, if you believe in talking donkeys, people being turned to pillars of salt and virgin births, I am sure there is some platitudinous reason as to why the Abrahamic god is happy to just watch.

By the way, the Christian church once tortured people who claimed that the Earth revolved around the Sun.