Loan Report

[cyril evans awaydays]

Re: Loan Report

That's a fair question. Manchester United used to farm players out to Royal Antwerp, although that's not your question. I'd say that it's a different type of football, completely different to the rigours of the championship.

Some interesting names on this list. Seems like Frazier Campbell came back a better player though the relative absences of golf courses and hills in Belgium may explain Alan Tate's inability to navigate a golf buggy without crippling himself!

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/revisiting-29-players-manchester-united-sent-on-loan-to-royal-antwerp

[Loramski]

Re: Loan Report

Luke Pearce made his league debut for Sligo as a late sub last night and scored the second in a 2-0 win over Galway.

Comes at around 5.00 here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UDXnLQwte0

[Loramski]

Re: Loan Report

90 minutes for both Raheem Conte and Malachi Fagan-Walcott tonight. Conte won the penalty that led to a 1-0 win for Woking (who have the sons of Jussi Jaaskelainen and Sean Dyche playing for them this season), Fagan-Walcott put in an 8/10 performance for York as they won 2-1.

18-year-old Ewan Griffiths played in goal for Plymouth Parkway as they drew 2-2 with Taunton Town in the Southern League tonight. The game was sponsored by Western Counties Roofing, to save anyone asking.

[Rjk]

Re: Loan Report

Luke Pearce made his league debut for Sligo as a late sub last night and scored the second in a 2-0 win over Galway.

Comes at around 5.00 here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UDXnLQwte0

I'd forgotten about him - perhaps by the time the LoI season finishes in November Reindorf will be with the first team and he will be the main striker for the U21s

[Loramski]

Re: Loan Report

I'd forgotten about him - perhaps by the time the LoI season finishes in November Reindorf will be with the first team and he will be the main striker for the U21s

I posted that in July but he hasn't scored since and has only had one start, in a cup game. He scored in a friendly against Everton before his league goal but hasn't pushed on from there. Ollie Denham still seems to be starting every week, I wonder what his next move will be?

[Loramski]

Re: Loan Report

A mixed bag for our loaned out players yesterday.

An impressive and dominant display from Eli King for Stevenage as they beat Barnsley 3-0. It had been a slow start to the season for him but he's going through the gears now. Good in midweek for Wales under-21s and another strong 90 minutes yesterday as he broke down play, got tackles in and kept the ball moving in possession. Apparently, the majority of his passes were forward ones which seems slightly unorthodox but each to their own.

King's teammate in Iceland on Tuesday, Joel Colwill, didn't recover as quickly as he was subbed after an hour of Cheltenham's game at Salford. He'd had a good game and Cheltenham were leading 1-0 but tiredness caught up with him and Salford went on to win 2-1. Hopefully there's someone in his family he can talk to about stamina issues.

A couple of switches to defence didn't work out yesterday. Keiron Evans started at right wing back for Newport but didn't even finish the half there as he was soon pushed further forward as Newport went 3-0 down to Swindon early on. It finished 4-0 but Keiron lasted the 90 minutes which was around half an hour longer than Raheem Conte lasted as Woking lost 3-1 at home to Oldham. Not sure why Raheem was playing at the back but it obviously didn't come off.

Another strong performance from Malachi Fagan-Walcott helped York to a 3-0 win over Fylde in front a crowd of over 5,000. They now top the National League. No such luck for Roko Simic and Luke Pearce as they came on as subs in heavy defeats for Kortrijk and Sligo. No pitch time for Ryan Wintle at Millwall and no sign of Josh Beecher at Barry yet. Ewan Griffiths helped take Plymouth Parkway one step nearer to Wembley with a 4-3 win over Westbury United in the second qualifying round of the FA Cup.

[Tuerto]

Re: Loan Report

A mixed bag for our loaned out players yesterday.

An impressive and dominant display from Eli King for Stevenage as they beat Barnsley 3-0. It had been a slow start to the season for him but he's going through the gears now. Good in midweek for Wales under-21s and another strong 90 minutes yesterday as he broke down play, got tackles in and kept the ball moving in possession. Apparently, the majority of his passes were forward ones which seems slightly unorthodox but each to their own.

King's teammate in Iceland on Tuesday, Joel Colwill, didn't recover as quickly as he was subbed after an hour of Cheltenham's game at Salford. He'd had a good game and Cheltenham were leading 1-0 but tiredness caught up with him and Salford went on to win 2-1. Hopefully there's someone in his family he can talk to about stamina issues.

A couple of switches to defence didn't work out yesterday. Keiron Evans started at right wing back for Newport but didn't even finish the half there as he was soon pushed further forward as Newport went 3-0 down to Swindon early on. It finished 4-0 but Keiron lasted the 90 minutes which was around half an hour longer than Raheem Conte lasted as Woking lost 3-1 at home to Oldham. Not sure why Raheem was playing at the back but it obviously didn't come off.

Another strong performance from Malachi Fagan-Walcott helped York to a 3-0 win over Fylde in front a crowd of over 5,000. They now top the National League. No such luck for Roko Simic and Luke Pearce as they came on as subs in heavy defeats for Kortrijk and Sligo. No pitch time for Ryan Wintle at Millwall and no sign of Josh Beecher at Barry yet. Ewan Griffiths helped take Plymouth Parkway one step nearer to Wembley with a 4-3 win over Westbury United in the second qualifying round of the FA Cup.

Nice to hear about King, he's got something, don't quite know what, but he's switched on. I wont go over the top, i can't anyway as i havent seen enough of him. I'm hoping he's a late developer, one of those players who melts into team rather than takes it by storm, a bit like joe ralls did.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Loan Report

Nice to hear about King, he's got something, don't quite know what, but he's switched on. I wont go over the top, i can't anyway as i havent seen enough of him. I'm hoping he's a late developer, one of those players who melts into team rather than takes it by storm, a bit like joe ralls did.

Except, in a testimony to what we’ve become, Ralls was four years younger than King is when he was playing in League Cup Semi Finals.

[Tuerto]

Re: Loan Report

Except, in a testimony to what we’ve become, Ralls was four years younger than King is when he was playing in League Cup Semi Finals.

That's why i said Late developer

[Loramski]

Re: Loan Report

Nice to hear about King, he's got something, don't quite know what, but he's switched on. I wont go over the top, i can't anyway as i havent seen enough of him. I'm hoping he's a late developer, one of those players who melts into team rather than takes it by storm, a bit like joe ralls did.

That's not a bad comparison. TOBW is right that Ralls played in the first leg of the League Cup semi at 18 in January 2012 but Malky hardly used him after that. He played a season and a half of under-21 football then went on loan to the Championship with Yeovil the season we were in the Prem. Solskjaer rated him, brought him back into the first team for the 2014/15 season and he ended up making over 30 appearances.

While Ralls has always been ahead of King in terms of his development here, he had the advantage of being able to play on the left side of midfield, and even left back, as well as central midfield which gave him more of an opportunity to melt into the team, as you put it. I'd love King to break in here but his chances this season would've been limited and the pressure to make a big impression might have got to him (as I felt it did against Bristol Rovers).

Both King and Fagan-Walcott have talked positively about the season ahead and, while you wouldn't expect any different, it's easy to believe that they feel they've dodged a bullet (Bulut?) by getting out of here for now and can look forward to playing regular football and developing their game in a positive environment.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Loan Report

That's not a bad comparison. TOBW is right that Ralls played in the first leg of the League Cup semi at 18 in January 2012 but Malky hardly used him after that. He played a season and a half of under-21 football then went on loan to the Championship with Yeovil the season we were in the Prem. Solskjaer rated him, brought him back into the first team for the 2014/15 season and he ended up making over 30 appearances.

While Ralls has always been ahead of King in terms of his development here, he had the advantage of being able to play on the left side of midfield, and even left back, as well as central midfield which gave him more of an opportunity to melt into the team, as you put it. I'd love King to break in here but his chances this season would've been limited and the pressure to make a big impression might have got to him (as I felt it did against Bristol Rovers).

Both King and Fagan-Walcott have talked positively about the season ahead and, while you wouldn't expect any different, it's easy to believe that they feel they've dodged a bullet (Bulut?) by getting out of here for now and can look forward to playing regular football and developing their game in a positive environment.

Ralls was a regular in our League Cup run of 11/12 and played in the early rounds as a 17 year old, he made his league debut as a 17 year old, he was filling in as a left back in a promotion winning team just after his 19th birthday. The major reason he dropped out of first team contention for a while around the age of 20 was that we were in the Premier League - Ralls was playing in a far better City team than the current one that King is deemed not good enough to play a part in.

King might not be as good as the young Ralls, but he’s been loaned out which presumably means Bulut rates him below Rinomhota who it’s hard to see any way into the team for. King will be 22 while he’s with Stevenage and, for what it’s worth, I believe in having him here rather than Rinomhota.

I’m always banging about backing youngsters, but, in this case, King should not be classed as a youngster - except to Bulut he clearly is. Let’s not forget now that King is playing for a side that, on present form, could well beat us. It seems he was very good on Saturday in a big win over a side that reached the Play Offs last season and I think it’s reasonable to think some would have watched him on Saturday and thought what on earth is he doing at Stevenage when Cardiff are so poor?

Part of the answer to that question is that, in the last decade, we’ve become the sort of team that loans 22 year olds out as part of their “development”. Doing that at such an age makes sense if you’re in the Premier League, but City really should have made up their mind on someone like King by now.

[Loramski]

Re: Loan Report

Ralls was a regular in our League Cup run of 11/12 and played in the early rounds as a 17 year old, he made his league debut as a 17 year old, he was filling in as a left back in a promotion winning team just after his 19th birthday. The major reason he dropped out of first team contention for a while around the age of 20 was that we were in the Premier League - Ralls was playing in a far better City team than the current one that King is deemed not good enough to play a part in.

King might not be as good as the young Ralls, but he’s been loaned out which presumably means Bulut rates him below Rinomhota who it’s hard to see any way into the team for. King will be 22 while he’s with Stevenage and, for what it’s worth, I believe in having him here rather than Rinomhota.

I’m always banging about backing youngsters, but, in this case, King should not be classed as a youngster - except to Bulut he clearly is. Let’s not forget now that King is playing for a side that, on present form, could well beat us. It seems he was very good on Saturday in a big win over a side that reached the Play Offs last season and I think it’s reasonable to think some would have watched him on Saturday and thought what on earth is he doing at Stevenage when Cardiff are so poor?

Part of the answer to that question is that, in the last decade, we’ve become the sort of team that loans 22 year olds out as part of their “development”. Doing that at such an age makes sense if you’re in the Premier League, but City really should have made up their mind on someone like King by now.

You've made Ralls sound like Malky's Archie Gray there but he only made six league starts as a teenager here and only started two games in that league cup run (and didn't even get put on the bench for the final).

What sets him apart from King is that when they were both 19 they got sent on season-long loan spells. While Ralls had a good season in the Championship with Yeovil, King struggled at League 2 Crewe and was back here by January (and unable to go out on loan again because he'd already played for two clubs that season).

So, as 20-year-olds the following season, Ralls was ready to 'melt' into our Championship side while King was having to start again with a League 2 move followed by a spell in the Scottish Prem. Both successful this time round but does that mean he's ready to start in the Championship? Especially when the position he plays in is occupied by the manager's own, seemingly immovable, signing? Maybe, maybe not, but surely it's better for King to be playing regular football in League 1 than potentially bench-warming here.

Mark Harris was 21 when he got sent back from a failed National League loan spell but he seems to have turned it around. We let Ajayi go at 23 but the best was still ahead of him, Lockyer didn't become a Championship player till his mid-20s, Regan Poole would've been the same if it wasn't for last season's injury. I'm sure every club has got similar stories. Loans can be a bit of a cop-out in that they save a manager from having to develop a player himself but, to me, it's a better option than a) playing someone who's not ready or b) not playing or releasing someone who may have the potential to come good, whatever age they are.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Loan Report

You've made Ralls sound like Malky's Archie Gray there but he only made six league starts as a teenager here and only started two games in that league cup run (and didn't even get put on the bench for the final).

What sets him apart from King is that when they were both 19 they got sent on season-long loan spells. While Ralls had a good season in the Championship with Yeovil, King struggled at League 2 Crewe and was back here by January (and unable to go out on loan again because he'd already played for two clubs that season).

So, as 20-year-olds the following season, Ralls was ready to 'melt' into our Championship side while King was having to start again with a League 2 move followed by a spell in the Scottish Prem. Both successful this time round but does that mean he's ready to start in the Championship? Especially when the position he plays in is occupied by the manager's own, seemingly immovable, signing? Maybe, maybe not, but surely it's better for King to be playing regular football in League 1 than potentially bench-warming here.

Mark Harris was 21 when he got sent back from a failed National League loan spell but he seems to have turned it around. We let Ajayi go at 23 but the best was still ahead of him, Lockyer didn't become a Championship player till his mid-20s, Regan Poole would've been the same if it wasn't for last season's injury. I'm sure every club has got similar stories. Loans can be a bit of a cop-out in that they save a manager from having to develop a player himself but, to me, it's a better option than a) playing someone who's not ready or b) not playing or releasing someone who may have the potential to come good, whatever age they are.

To what purpose is King being loaned out at 21/22? If we had a history of loaning out players of that age just before they broke into the first team as a regular starter, you'd think there's a point to it, but I can't think of a signle player that's happened with in the last decade or so.

Going back to Ralls, nothing I said about him when he was a teenager is untrue - he was in the first team at 17, started in a League Cup Semi Final at an age when current players tend to be considered whether they're good enough for the step up to the under 21s and was being played out of a position in a promotion winning side before he was out of his teens.

People who like to give the impression they are in the know say that Bulut teally rates Kpakio. However, what is his season going to entail if, as he's done with all but Rubin Colwill and Ashford (him coming on at Derby represented a progression in his career given the way this manager operates) of the seemingly above average crop of Academy products coming through, Bulut only all os him to play the occasional game for the under 21s because he's not trusted yet to play in the Championship in a "proper" game.

It's the same for Giles, until quite recently, he and Kpakio would have come into consideration in meaningful league games (not the end of season stuff Bulut felt he could let youngsters play in last year), especially in a team where senior players are struggling as much as they are currently. There is nothing to indicate though that, no matter how bad things get, our manager is going to seriously consider picking either of them in a league game this side of April. It's players like Kpakio and Giles we should be looking to loan out if they're not going to get into the League team yet.

[Loramski]

Re: Loan Report

To what purpose is King being loaned out at 21/22? If we had a history of loaning out players of that age just before they broke into the first team as a regular starter, you'd think there's a point to it, but I can't think of a signle player that's happened with in the last decade or so.

Going back to Ralls, nothing I said about him when he was a teenager is untrue - he was in the first team at 17, started in a League Cup Semi Final at an age when current players tend to be considered whether they're good enough for the step up to the under 21s and was being played out of a position in a promotion winning side before he was out of his teens.

People who like to give the impression they are in the know say that Bulut teally rates Kpakio. However, what is his season going to entail if, as he's done with all but Rubin Colwill and Ashford (him coming on at Derby represented a progression in his career given the way this manager operates) of the seemingly above average crop of Academy products coming through, Bulut only all os him to play the occasional game for the under 21s because he's not trusted yet to play in the Championship in a "proper" game.

It's the same for Giles, until quite recently, he and Kpakio would have come into consideration in meaningful league games (not the end of season stuff Bulut felt he could let youngsters play in last year), especially in a team where senior players are struggling as much as they are currently. There is nothing to indicate though that, no matter how bad things get, our manager is going to seriously consider picking either of them in a league game this side of April. It's players like Kpakio and Giles we should be looking to loan out if they're not going to get into the League team yet.

I've no idea how these things work but whose radar would lads like Kpakio and Giles be on at this stage of their careers, just out of our Academy with 26 minutes of league action between them? If Fagan-Walcott is only in the National League and Tom Davies is apparently unable to find anything, who'd pick the two of them up? I'm sure if a decent offer came in then the club would consider letting one or both of them go out but it seems a bit harsh to criticise the club for not sorting loan deals for them while also being critical of a League 1 deal for King.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree about King, I'm not really sure what your point is. He's still got a couple of years left on his contract, are you saying that if Bulut doesn't think he's a better option than Siopis then we should pay his contract up or just let him twiddle his thumbs here until it runs out? Presumably Stevenage are paying most of his wages so it's not costing us much, King's got the chance to play regular football at a good level and Stevenage are strengthening their squad. Seems like everyone's a winner to me.

We sent Ajayi out at that age to League 1 and he went on to become a Premier League player, we sent McGuinness out at that age too then sold him for millions soon after. Even Ebou Adams made us some decent money and got him a good move after playing there. Mark Harris seems to have benefitted from a season at that level at 25. It's hardly a graveyard.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Loan Report

I've no idea how these things work but whose radar would lads like Kpakio and Giles be on at this stage of their careers, just out of our Academy with 26 minutes of league action between them? If Fagan-Walcott is only in the National League and Tom Davies is apparently unable to find anything, who'd pick the two of them up? I'm sure if a decent offer came in then the club would consider letting one or both of them go out but it seems a bit harsh to criticise the club for not sorting loan deals for them while also being critical of a League 1 deal for King.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree about King, I'm not really sure what your point is. He's still got a couple of years left on his contract, are you saying that if Bulut doesn't think he's a better option than Siopis then we should pay his contract up or just let him twiddle his thumbs here until it runs out? Presumably Stevenage are paying most of his wages so it's not costing us much, King's got the chance to play regular football at a good level and Stevenage are strengthening their squad. Seems like everyone's a winner to me.

We sent Ajayi out at that age to League 1 and he went on to become a Premier League player, we sent McGuinness out at that age too then sold him for millions soon after. Even Ebou Adams made us some decent money and got him a good move after playing there. Mark Harris seems to have benefitted from a season at that level at 25. It's hardly a graveyard.

I believe that there is an optimum time for any player on his first or second professional contract when it comes to possible selection for the first team, there is a time when he is most ready for inclusion in the first team. Of course, many of those players will never be good enough for first team selection on merit, but they'll all have a short time when they are as ready for it as they'll ever be. In most cases, we're talking about someone who is around the ages of 19 to 22 I'd say, but there will be those who will never be closer to the stsndard required when they're 17 and there may be some (very few though) who aren't ready until they're 25.

It's my contention that City have been absolute crap at recognising and acting on that optimum age for what's getting prertty close to twenty years now and my point with Eli King in particular is that if he's going to get into the habit of turning in very influential performances for a team that currently sits just nine places below us in the football pyramid, then have we again failed to recognise that optimum time for a youngish player? It was ironic that we played Derby on Saturday because if you go bac k nearly two and a half years, King laid the only goal of the game there on a plate for Jordan Hugill and yet I would argue that, given the use made of him in pre season and that King seemed more in Erol Bulut's thoughts as a popssible first teamer in August 2023 than he did in August 2024, here is another player City are in danger of turning into another Theo Wharton or Tommy O'Sullivan. Ross County may not be a better team than Stevenage, but they get to play against teams that definitely are better than his current side in the SPL and, after watching the part King played in beating Rangers at the back end of last season, did he really need another season out on loan this time around?

Ironically, despite him clearly having a problem with selecting younger players in his average afe 29 first team, Erol Bulut is far from the worst manager City have had in the last decade or so when it comes to youth development. The team which played what been far and away City's best attacking football this season was maybe the youngest the club have put out in the twenty first century, but making an impression in a cup games is clearly not enough to get you into consideration for a league start unless it's the end of April or ealry May and the game has nothing riding on it.

Your last pargraph makes the case for loaning out some of the players who Bulut considers a part of his potential starting eleven (I'd say one of our keepers, Goutas, Meite, and, given our manager's attitude towards him, Robinson could fall into that category) could and should have followed Wintle out on loan in August. It would also make sense if, as I suspect it is, the loaning out of the likes of Fagan-Walcott, Conte, King and Simic has as much to do with trying to balance the books as it does player deverlopment.